You don't own the SHEEP!
I am amazed at how many people are soon labeled "rebellious" when God calls them to do something outside of the local church leadership plans for them. It's like we must have permission to obey God or be involved in ministries outside the particular vision and mission of the local church leadership. Churches are great at gathering people "into" and terrible at scattering/releasing the saints "out to".
THOTS:
1. We don't own the people - GOD DOES!
2. We cannot control people - we are submitted to the will of God.
3. We think we can determine the only ministries for people but that is really about control.
4. We are often quick to accuse people of rebellion and still refuse to be clear on how or where they are rebellious. This usually means we want to control them.
5. We say we are Great Commission focused but when some want to leave the nest to make disciples they are discouraged and wrongly labeled for doing so.
While I pastored the churches I did, God often reminded me to hold the church in an open hand. If God was calling people out I must release them. If the people didn;t want me as their pastor I was to leave quietly. If God was calling me elsewhere I had to go. I never owned the people I pastored. The people I pastored clearly understood that they did not own me either. The church was not mine, it belonged to God and still does.
posted by Bob Carder @ 1:04 PM
16 comments
16 Comments:
Bob, You are using a lot of "We" in your statements. Do "you" have a mouse in your pocket. This does not describe my Church I go to. Could you describe who the "We" is you are talking about? John
God has been teaching me a lot about possession vs. ownership the past few days. While God does own it all, some things are put into our possession by His will. These are our STWEARDSHIP responsibilities. For leaders, being a responsible leader and maintaining good stewardship means raising up the leaders in their flock and sending them out! For a flock, being a good steward of their leadership means caring for and protecting them as they can. We are called to be wise in how we use all the resources God has put into our possession, monetary and otherwise (employees, disciples, children, flocks, etc.). We truly need to divorce our understandings of ownership and possession.
(On a side note, I think this is where many people get tied up with the demonic influence possibilities; for even though God always owns us as His children, we have the ability to give the Enemy possession of areas of our life and therein let him possess us.)
another thing here is the subject of rights. to an who have been entrusted a flock for leadership and care (pastorally gifted or not),the sflock DOES NOT BELONG TO US. We are NOT the Great Shepherd; we are looking after what God has entrusted us until he comes to reclaim it. we have no rights to it, but we do have obligations to it. Actually, our primary service is to the Lord, not His sheep. as He brings in and takes out, we allow for that to happen, or facillitate it, or some other phrase thats not coming to mind right now.
As to your original point about labeling people rebellious, that's when we allow ouselves to think that the sheep are there to facillitate the vision God has given us instead of us being there to guide the sheep into God's overarching vision.
am i making sense or am i rambling? i cant quite tell.
"WE" isn't a mouse in my pocket it is AMERICA. Maybe you are sheltered. Thank God this is not your problem but it is OUR problem...the Church in America is in trouble. NEED I SAY MORE?
Bobert, to my knowledge, I've never been in a church that restricted ministry choices, either.
Or are you referring to a certain cross-cultural ministry opportunity that caused some angst a few years back? Would that be an example of the point you're making? Because I, too, am having trouble relating to this very broad claim you're making about the church in America.
Maybe some more details, facts, to support the argument would make it clearer what you're trying to say?
Michael - you are in a church that must approve ministries before you are allowed to serve in them or start them in the name of the church.
Tell your pastor you are starting a homeless ministry and that you are using an empty room or closet to store the blankets and pillows and tell him you are going to open the church every night to homeless people and see what he says.
He will tell you that you cannot do that. He will tell you that it must be approved -which I doubt would be approved. He will tell you that this is not the vision we have for our ministry.
TRY ME WISE GUY! You people must get your heads out of the sand. This is a real problem in America.
The Church I am referencing here is a church of over 700 people who refusing to release 20 people for a different ministry.
BETTER YET -READ MY BETTER YET POST ABOVE!
Bob
Of course, if I want to use the church facilities it must be approved...that is the stewardship oversight the board/pastor must provide.
Of course, if I want to do a ministry in the name of my church it must be approved.
But if I want to minister to homeless people in my own name or in Christ's name my church would have nothing to say about it -- in fact, I wouldn't even ask them.
Yes, if I needed their support and or wanted to use their facilities, I would ask -- but I fail to see how that's a problem?
On to readintg the recommended post...apparently above.
You would if they needed a place to sleep. Did you
Forget people need to sleep?
You would if they needed a place to sleep. Did you
Forget people need to sleep?
Mike, have you missed the point?
It's not hard to miss the point when you don't come right out and say it ...
Please answer directly: Are you saying that because it's the church and I attend there I should be able to bunk down homeless people in the gym if I want to without asking?
Michael,
I think you are missing the point. I mean this in no critical way, but this discussion is not simply about being able to do whatever you want to do; it is about the idea that as a church member assumed to be filled with the Holy Spirit you might be free to work in the way HE directs rather than just the way your pastor says or approves you to.
In many churches in America, the membership is scared to make decisions based on their personal faith without checking and gaining approval from their pastor. For example, a family may be asked to vacation with a coworkers family, they ask "Should I go on this trip with an unsaved family? It could be a valuable witnessing opportunity..." rather than praying and asking God if His glory will be declared through their actions- they place their personal faith in the hands of a man.
This is not about raising anarchy within the congregation, it is about releasing those within it whose Holy Spirit led actions have been stifled due to convenience or simple power issues. IF you want to discern whether or not the leadership of your church recognizes the HOLY SPIRIT as an authority within your life and the lives of other members of your congregation (not simply in verbal ways) then go out on a limb and do something simply because HE asked you to. That is the point here, that is the message- if it is the homeless- praise God, if it is the children of the neighborhood- praise God, if it is the elderly- praise God, if it is the sick or abused or any other faction of society that deserves the attention and love of the Body of Christ (meaning ANYONE)- PRAISE GOD.
If you are in a congregation where you are certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Holy Spirit is free to do whatever HE wishes with any member of your leadership or membership- then I'd expect you to be agreeing and affirming this conversation; not looking for ways to put words in Bob's mouth or skirt the real question of "Who owns the sheep?"
Many churches proclaim the people are God's, yet when He wants to do something unexpected and transformative with them, the leadership wonders why He didn't let them know first; if that is not your church- PRAISE GOD.
g.n.
Convenient for you to ding me for putting words in Bob's mouth while doing the same to me.
Regardless, Bob puts enough words in his own mouth without me adding to them.
My point is, I don't understand Bob's point -- and I'm seeking to have him clarify if what I think I'm hearing him say is what he's actually saying.
I have never once asked my pastor for permission to participate in a ministry I feel the HS leading me to. In fact, the idea that anyone would feel compelled to do this, unless he or she were unclear on the direction of the HS and was seeking biblical guidance, is absolutely silly to me -- in my own experience.
When Bob was my pastor, I never asked his permission to serve in a homeless shelter, witness to my neighbors, clean up along a neighborhood street. Why in the world would I?
Therefore, I'm trying to understand why Bob even wrote this blog post.
And he still hasn't made that clear.
Mike, I'm trying to see if God can work through you to bring a ministry to your church and through your church with His Holy Spirit's anointing. Is your church culture one that randomly welcomes the input of the Holy Spirit by hearing the hearts of the people as the Holy Spirit leads them individually? OR does your church have her own established ministries that must be staffed and served? I would contend that more than 80% of the churches in America have a controlled ministry program, meaning that the leadership determines which things are allowed. What role does the Holy Spirit play in determining the ministries offered people to serve in?
All I'm saying is that we need a culture of fluidity as the Holy Spirit leads us to serve and obey Him.
OK, your end statement I can agree with 100 percent. See, wasn't that easy? :)
The hard part is doing it, the easy part is pointing out what needs to be done. God help us and all who are caught in systems of power and greed.
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