Feeling Forsaken, but not surprised...
At risk of being to personal and vulnerable, I write. A few years ago Michelle and I sold out, packed up and moved to St. Louis to be involved in something only God could do. We knew the risk! But in search of something more we stepped outside of our comfort zones.
As a denominational employee (only at first) with start up funds from the Midwest District of the Missionary Church we knew we would eventually have to raise our own share support, much like missionaries do. I have no problem with being a missionary because if anyone needs missionaries it is America today. What an honor.
In the end I found myself in a power play by the president and the presidents men. I was chosen by the President but not hired by my boss. Not a good situation if you know what I mean. It proved not to be a good situation. The Presidents dream was not my bosses dream, really. The President hasn't figured that out as of yet. I feel sorry for Him, you know. His dream is being undermined. I'm saddened by that.
So I moved on to the Disciple Driven Church Project to start this new work or as I describe it, old New Testament work. It has been an exciting journey, indeed.
Because I am a Missionary I must raise my own support. Because I serve as coordinator of the Disciple Driven Church Project I must raise support for others as well.
All is well until the church cannot figure out what to do with us, because we do not fit the structures that are now in place. All is well, that is, until donors are pressured to give to their struggling local Church and not to us anymore. All is well, that is until we find ourselves out on a limb or on an island. All is well, that is with few others and All of God. You see, when you have nothing but Jesus, Jesus is all you need. AHAH! What a blessed thot!
Even with the pull out of those who fear that we will shake up status quo. Even with the fear that my donors must give more instead to their struggling church and not to us. Even with no clear path for funding our staff or for fueling the movement, we rest in the hands of God who birthed us. God is forever faithful and we will not be shaken by pull outs and some who refuse to pray out. We are moving forward with or without all that we think we need to survive.
America is a mission field and we are God's servants. We serve faithfully and sacrificially. The fulfillment of God's mission is first, our needs are last. We have no guarantee other than the promises of God. That is enough. Indeed!
The Church in America is in trouble. They need every tithe and every offering to keep up with the pace. It has now become more about local ministry than it is about World Mission, including America.
It is saddening that the Church of America no longer cares (they will argue this) about America as a whole. We have our own local problems, needs, plans, and nothing else matters anymore. Our mission first, in our locale. Nothing matters until this need is met! This mission fulfilled!
Is there anything wrong with this picture? What's right with it?
posted by Bob Carder @ 9:58 PM
23 comments
23 Comments:
Tough situation brother. I feel the fundraising pain and know what it is like to have churches commit (people and money) and then pull back when it becomes too hard.
One thing I am not sure about. So is your new "movement" actually planting churches in other areas?
Also, are you familiar with Christ the King Church out here in WA? They have a model for doing "campus" churches that really is church planting that you might get some good insight from.
How come God is blessing Joyce Meyer and Benny Hinn with millions of dollars in funds and income, but not you, Bob?
Likely your aren't as close to the Holy Spirit as these godly folk are.
Careful you don't die poor and go to Hell.
One question that's rarely asked is, 'What happens to a local church that *doesn't* send/support missionaries?'
There's a cost in giving, but there's also a cost in not giving.
Spot on, honest2blog.
What happens when the local church doesn't send/support missionaries? Well 99.999999998% of people will go to Hell, up from 99.999999997%. Another way to put this is that when you get to Heaven, you'll encounter another person every 6,000,000,000,000 years instead of every 5,000,000,000,000 years.
Missionary activiy can make a profound difference.
A few thoughts maybe more reminders
now matter what your philosophy of ministry the focus must be on God's Glory not on the money, the numbers, the planting or those opposing. Matt. 6:33
Disciple making movements are not planting churches but making disciples. Addition seems fast at the beginning but it stays at the same pace. Multiplication is slow at first then it picks up pass additions and explodes. Bob (and myself) are still at the beginning of this multiplication process--when it explodes the question of rather we are really planting churches will fade.
We dare not interpret God's blessing by financial gain. It just isn't in Scripture. I don't think Matt. 5 says Blessed are the poor in heart for they will make millions.
to jr,
one of the principles of our movement is that disciples are not made by planting churches, churches are planed by making disciples. We seek to go and make disciples as the Spirit leads us, and t churches raise up around them.
and to my dear bob,
never forget that we all know what you put into fundraising, and that we are eternally grateful not only for your dedication, but that God saw fit to bless us with you. Press on! Jehovah Jirah! (if i spelled that right, i was going for the whole "the Lord will provide" thing).
Zach, thanks for making that clear. I kinda' thought thats what you guys were doing but wanted to make sure.
May I ask a question?
I know Bob is big on doing things like we see in the NT. Can you show me where the Apostles modeled making disciples outside church planting?
I guess what I am not understanding is how is it you are making disciples without building community?
Or maybe the most simple way I can ask is, how is it possible to be a disciple and not embrace the church as your Family?
Thanks for any insights you guys can offer.
I'm more concerned about what Jesus modeled and Jesus truly modeled making disciples as the priority of His life and mission.
We must do no less...It's not just New Testament it is JESUS!
David is being sarcastic a bit:)
The way we do it in Nicosia is that the two go hand in hand. Discipleship takes place in the context of community - even (or especially) in small communities of two or three. I guess the difference is that we don't do lots of things to get people into church before we disciple them. We put our energy and resources into discipleship while forming discipleship based communities that worship and minister corporately.
Generally speaking, at the Nicosia International Church we invite people into the church to be apprentices rather than consumers.
Many in the discipleship movement have a tendency to devalue the corporate aspect of discipleship and Christian formation. That's unfortunate because it's neither biblical nor practical. It can be easy to waste as much energy cutting down the consumer based church as it can be to build it.
Thanks for the answer Bob. It does not really answer my question, but at least I can see what you are all about.
Good luck with it.
jr-"I guess what I am not understanding is how is it you are making disciples without building community?"
My primary question is how do you build a community by making a building? As we make disciples, we bring them into community. for example(and pardon the cheesy analogy) person a disciples person b who disciples person c. when person c starts discipling person d, person d is brought into community of persons a,b,&c. in addition, the part of the body that a,b&c belong to come alongside person d as he/she grows and walks in the Spirit.
I hope that wasnt confusing, im not very good at translating. but the overall point is that community is built AS disciples are made, not the other way around. If we focus on community first, we have lost our true focus.
I was going to speak about the aspect of fund raising that you brought up in your post. I'm not exactly sure why fund raising would be an issue with a discipleship movement. If we disciple folks as we live our lives, why can't we support our families as well with a full time job? It would seem that creating a job structure based on ministry is just that, a structure that must be supported, similar to the traditional church. IMHO, I think we try to take on too much and think that we need to do ministry "full time". Let's face it, you really can't disciple 50 people at once (I'm not saying you are, just an example). Currently, I'm discipleing three guys, and my hands are full! I've found that the times that are most effective in my discipleship relationships are lived out of the normal ebb and flow of life in general.
hmmm... interesting. My question was about "church" and you said, "building".
I guess that would be the difference between our thinking then since you think church is a building
I would loosely define church as a community of disciples and ultimately a mature community will develop a healthy leadership. But my guess is we would disagree there as well since Jesus never appointed Elders (that was Paul) and if you are with Bob then you only follow Jesus' example and not Paul's or the other Apostles.
to jr-
i do NOT beleive that church is a building. if it wasnt for the fact that i can see that i connected dots that werent really there and made an erroneous statement i would be slightly offended. but no harm done. when i first observed your comment that i responded to before, well, that question has been posed to me by every establishment supporter i come across when i discuss this with. and since i dont really know you, unfortunately, i assumed you were in that group of people. i ask your forgiveness for jumping to a judgement about you.
we effectively have the same definition of the church, although you say yours is a loose one, i wonder what the not-so-loose-one is?
in addition, in response to "how is it possible to be a disciple and not embrace the church as your Family?", all your questions in that post seemed geared towards community, so i respond in suit (if i misinterpret your questions,help me out here). What the 'big church' (also called the setablished church) calls community is NOT what we call community. When we make disciples, we MAKE community and we MAKE Christian fellowship. You cant make disciples without making communtiy. but in the 'big church', light tries to fellowship with darkness and it doesnt work. teh body has become unevenly yoked with the darkness, and that is not the Family of the Church.
Bob- i think you would be better at describing the whole 'uneven yoke' thing than i am, something about prophetic voice :)
Zach, I understand. It is easy for any of us to make assumptions and I appreciate you taking the time to work through it.
You said, "we effectively have the same definition of the church, although you say yours is a loose one, i wonder what the not-so-loose-one is?"
By "loose" I think being the church is more than just disciples being community.. it involves what we do, how we act, etc... so I said "loose" just to emphasize that it is a part of being church, but not the whole thing. If you are to read more of what I hold to, you can start here regarding our Divine Identity. Or you can also read some of my own journey about church here.
I also think that doing church is more than just "doing what Jesus did" . If that all there is to the Christian life, then we might as well strap on the WWJC bracelets and call it good. Doing church is also about doing what Jesus commanded us to do directly and through his Apostles. My current series on Elders outliens some of my thoughts on this.
Finally, using the passage of being "unequally yoked" to compare what you are doing vs. everyone else scares me.
First, because I look at history movements that start off with the premise that" everyone else is wrong and we are the only ones doing it right " Tend to be the movements that spawn denominations. (read my history of denominationalism in the Pentecostal church for some background.
Second, here is the passage you refer.
2 Cor. 6:13 Now in a like exchange—I speak as to children—open wide to us also. 14 Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? 15 Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? 16 Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, “I will dwell in them and walk among them; And I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 17 “Therefore, come out from their midst and be separate,” says the Lord. “And do not touch what is unclean; And I will welcome you. 18 “And I will be a father to you, And you shall be sons and daughters to Me,” Says the Lord Almighty. 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
If you are telling me that anyone who does not practice church in the same way as you or who does not join in with your discipleship movement and remains a part of what you consider the institutional church is the same as being yoked to an unbeliever and with false idols, then that is wrong. I don't defend everything in the "institutional" church, but that is a far cry from the judgement you seem to make on everyone who might have a different view of how to reform the church. And quite honestly, I don't know by what authority you would dare to stand in judgement of all Christians as wicked just because their ecclesiology is flawed.
Now I do hope I am reading into your statement, so please tell me I am misreading you though!!???
First, sorry there are a bunch of grammatical errors in my post... way to late and a crying baby have made it tough to post tonight.
Second, Zach, I was a bit rushed in my post and want to affirm that my last comment was more of a question about what you meant in using the passage. There is probably a good way to interpret what you are saying and a bad way. I hope the best and assume I am misreading you, so I hope you will take the time to correct my error in reading you and help me see where you are coming from brother.
my point with the passage i referenced, and thank you for putting it up for me, is that light has NO fellowship with darkness and the established church in America has attempted to evangelize by making Christian fellowship into fellowship between light and darkness. The goats walk alongside the sheep and no one knows the difference. my only point is that THIS IS NOT FELLOWSHIP. I never intended to pass judgement, only to make an observation. And this observation is not to say that Christians who attempt to wroship alongside non-believers (however someone can worship something they dont beleieve is beyond me) are wicked in any way, for the wheat does grow alongside tares. and we are to go to the sinners and be in this world among them. But true fellowship is something we only have because of Christ. It is impossible for them to truly enact in it. I merely stated that the church in america suffers from this.
And, not to forget that this was a response to a post from you, to say that we do embrace the church as our family, but it will look different than it would if you looked in the institutionalized church.
In the end, i dont think that you misread anything i was saying, only the tone with which i said it.
okay, I appreciate you taking the time to help clarify your point.
Thanks brother!
J.R. we do make disciples and then enfold them into community. We do not enfold (on purpose) anyone who is not a Christ follower.
We were never told to plant churches. But instead, Jesus told us to make disciples who make disciples who... It is only God who can birth His Body the Church community as disciples are made. Our focus is not on planting churches because we stress disciple making.
If you want to launch a disciple making movement that results in God birthed Church keep your team away from Church Planting Bootcamps. Church Planting systems teach leaders to take the focus off of disciple making (subtly) until you get the crowd and then the crowd has been called to gathering other crowds and not disciple making with supremacy. A grave mistake.
I'm also resisting to comment because I am enjoying the comments of Zach as he answers. And by the way, Zach is in my disciple line...PTL!
Pete, as part of the Disciple Driven Church Project I am responsible for raising financial and prayer support. Michelle and I moved to St. Louis as missionaries to the larger cities of America.
No one here is ever opposed to working a full time job. I just need to raise funds to give salary support to some leaders and to fuel this movement of Holy Spirit led and empowered disciple making. This is what God has called me to.
We are launching a national disciple making movement that makes disciples without programs, buildings, limiting structures and without attracting the crowd. The church of Jesus Christ needs to be built one disciple at a time and not with believers and unbelievers mixing together as the church.
"We are launching a national disciple making movement."
A little arrogant, perhaps, Bob? Wasn't that movement launched over 2000 years ago? Are you the undocmented thirteenth disciple of Jesus? You must be very old.
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