My friend, David Fitch takes on Willow Creek
When is a Story Not A Story? : Willowcreek and Acrobats on Christmas Eve
Tuesday, January 09, 2007
"Over Christmas time, Willowcreek put on Christmas Eve service(s) that they described as their most ambitious yet. Most noteworthy, according to the newspaper, they used Cirque de Soleil-style acrobats in the presentation of the Christmas story. While some of us were (admittedly) smirking over this - a friend said to me, "they are just trying to be creative in presenting the story of Christ's birth. What could be wrong with that?" At which point I pondered - at what point is the story no longer the story? Answer - when it becomes a spectacle. According to Paul Ricouer, we know it's a good story when we "get into it," when we see ourselves "emploted" into the story. This is the idea behind remembering the story, rehearsing it in worship (and the Eucharist), true anamnesis (1 Cor 11:24). The spectacle however turns us passive no longer able to participate in the story. The question is: did Willowcreek turn the story of the Christ child into a spectacle with the use of acrobats? Did the acrobats becomes so mesmerizing that those who came to see were caught up in the spectral gaze, detached and mesmerized, made totally inert as onlookers no longer able to participate in the story? Because when the story becomes a spectacle, the story is no longer a story. And we have gone from an act of worship to an act of spectatorship, from an act of participation to a spectral gaze."
The Planter: Again anyone with resources can attract people to our gigs. Whatever happened to attracting people to Jesus! Does Jesus really need acrobats todraw people to Himself or is His presence enough?
It will only get worse and worse as people leave the smaller churches or homes to attend the greatest show in town. Willow is sucking the life out of the true cost of really following Jesus.
They look good but they are eroding Christianity and her real message. Forgive me for picking on Willow but it is more than I can contain, so I share...Thanks Dave F.
Read the entire post.... reclaiming the mission
posted by Bob Carder @ 8:05 PM
28 comments
28 Comments:
He Bob, spamthewunderdog here, Consider this a kamikazee drop in. I spend some time reading yours and other stuff every day. But most of my time in conversation is usually spent 1 to 1 in my local coffee shop with people who don't really go to Church, and would see most of our discussions here as time better spent.
So, take this question both seriously and with a grain of salt: How much time do you spend every day looking for stuff in the "american" Church to be angry about?
Hey Kamikazee - Let me address this as a teachable moment for all the others who don't understand your sarcasm (which I love) and your tongue in cheek blabber (which makes my day) you all must read on.
Perhaps one might not consider my time spent and posts as anger and time wasting.I have a passion so strong it consumes me to see the Church in America become what Jesus meant and desires for her/us to be. In case you have not noticed we have lost people (even believers) who are disconnecting or already disconnected from the American church.
I feel Jesus would show anger over the way we have distorted and failed to own the mission of His church.
Now this is a special word for KAMIKAZEE SPAM. Those who don't go to church would be high five-ing me because finally someone sees what they have seen way before us. As for my time, if you think you use your time more wisely than I do,who am I to say different? Take that with a grain of salt you stinker!
May God help us to keep spending most of our time with the disengaged culture so that we can lead them to Jesus and not to church.
I have more time than most because I don't spend all those hours serving inside the church. You would be amazed. If only we could release those serving in the church to Be the Church in the world think of the impact?
to all of us and for all of us who want to see Jesus' "church" all that it is supposed to be: PLEASE!!!!!! Let's stop "bashing" what other churches are doing. We have had an absolute manifestation of God's approval on what we are doing at True Vine. Let that speak. It already has. Don't keep bad mouthing mega churches because it does come off like anger. I'm not angry with them, are any of you???? God is just leading me in a different direction...and that direction is not to change the face of the contemporary church. It's to change the heart of the people He brings into my life, one life at a time. If we do what we are called to, then what we are doing will be seen and people will know who God is. Keep our eyes toward heaven and keep busy with what He has called us to do, not busy watching and judging what others are doing. It's a total waste of time. Judy M
Judy, I guess all I can say is 'Amen!'
But remember on this blog we are never arguing we are just fleshing out the principles. This is a healthy dialogue.
Also, this blog is speaking to leaders around the world in the process of moving into a totally new paradigm. The new paradigm is moving away from all the attractional focus and what we are discussing here does help move leaders from the American version of Christianity and into something that honors the mission of Christ for all of us.
Remember this, we are not bashing Willow and their ministry as a whole, we are bashing (if we are) what Willow did to the simple message of Christmas. Next year they will have to up it again. But I argue if I argue, since when do we need all the extra's to show the world who Jesus is.
What makes True Vine so special is the fact that nothing we humanly have draws people in, it is Jesus. Let's keep Jesus in the simplicity of transforming lives without all the lights and glitter. Jesus is the attraction.
No one is angry here, we just need to save America from the path of Europe and my grandkids and their kids and theirs need the Jesus we know and love. That is what I fight for with all the energy and integrity I can possess.
Forgive any offence as I remember the words of Jesus, "If they are for me how can they be against me."
So your admonition is received and well taken. Thankyou.
No one is doing anything to hurt the cause of Christ on purpose and this we all know.
Judy, you are a great leader filled with the love of Jesus and with integrity that stretches to touch lives far beyong your reach.
We love you here. Others love you also. And I might add, I love Spam also. We just engage each other with total honesty.
Wow - God has given me Bob and Judy in my life. How blessed I am to have you both. You both help bring balance to my life.
Hey,
I don't stink, I used my underarm deodorant today!!!
In all seriousness, I would be high fiving you too. But at some point, I would hope that we would get to brass tacks and stop talking and being angry about what is, and get on to the working out of what could and should be.
The thing that keeps me going is the fact that Jesus, on more than one occassion told his disciples that he was "going to Jerusalem" (Matt 20, Mark 10, Luke 18 etc...) I mean Jesus was being called on to make right all manner of horrible things, but his mission was Jerusalem, and nothing swayed him from that. It just seems to me that we can get too caught up in the talking about what is wrong with "other" churches, that we lose focus on the fact that we are "going to Jerusalem".
SPAM - For the final time I am not angry, I do what I do on purpose.
Nothing is wrong with anyone unless the mission is wrong. Please, please don't labet me angry. I can take most anything but angry I cannot take.
I just long for more and I do stir people up on purpose. If you don't believe me, don't test me or I'll have your goat. I lose few battles on this one. And I will not be swayed, try me! Love you bro.
When are you moving to engage the beauty of what we speak of? Get out the boat while there is yet time to make a difference.
Come on over my friend. We are ready for the likes of you.
Spam -I enjoy alittle anger for the heck of it. You should discard the deodorant and take a shower.
Are you ever tired of whatis so that what could be could be realized? Just wondrin. I long for people ike you to lead a revolution of a reorientation of the mission of the Church in America.
I do believe God is raising you up for such a time as this. Maybe you are more ready than you think. Keep up the challenge as long as you are open for God to lead you to join the challenge for a better day and way for the Church.
I believe in you even when you are a kamicakazee SPAM, my friend (the one who does not stink, just as he said).
Keep up the dialogue but please stop calling me angry or I will get angry and if I get angry I will blow you off the blog. What can I say I am gifted.
Hey Bob. Just wondering what you meant by 'we need to save America from the path of Europe.'
Personally, I don't think we need to save America. That's not the job of the church, but maybe you meant we need to save the American *church* from the path of the European *church.*
The state of the European institutional church varies from country to country, and its reasons for growth or irrelevancey vary from place to place. Europeans are very different from Americans, so in spite of surface similarities, we're really dealing with two different animals.
It's quite a complicated subject, but one worth exploring.
sorry, can't help wonderin' if you actually saw the acrobatic Christmas story or are just judging without seeing?
I have not seen it, don't care to see it (though I do love the Cirque de Soleil...).
I do agree with Judy -- but you know that already. I also agree with you that spectacle, for the sake of spectacle, is not the answer. So does that make me like Paul, becoming all things to reach all people?
(Oh I know you are going to jump on that one, but not in anger!!)
Rick, I'm under the weather today but I can only sleep so long.
You said, Personally, I don't think we need to save America. That's not the job of the church, but maybe you meant we need to save the American *church* from the path of the European *church.*
ME: You got it right and let's jump into that deeper discussion sometime. We are sure getting alott of stuff back logged to talk about.
Aprreciate you..
Bob, glad you're not "really angry". But I do agree with Rick in drawing contention with "saving America" whether it's the path of the church or America in general. Jesus is the Savior. It's His job to do the saving...our job to be obedient. Our obedience to His word in all areas will move His church to what it is supposed to be. Only in obedience will we witness the unfolding of the mighty plan of God for the church...our own "power" only gets in the way!!! I learned long ago that you can't "convince" ( I hesitate to use the word argue...it seems to be the offensive word of the day :)) anyone into the kingdom of God. I think the same goes with this organic movement of the church. Our actions will speak louder than our words...and if the truth be at our front door, our actions will speak louder than acrobats and loud music.
My 18 year old son recently returned from a Campus Crusade "event " in Denver. One of the things he said that stood out to me was after he and 2 other students were singing on the street corner with just his voice and 2 guitars, at least 2 people came to know the Lord. He said "Mom, they came to know Jesus without any loud speakers or ..." oh shoot...what's that stuff they use onstage that makes it look like smoke? Anyway, you get the point. Zach understood exactly what we are trying to do. Let God do the work. Later gator...Judy M
Has anyone ever thought that those mega churches, and the minor ones have a place and a purpose in Gods redeeming work here on earth? or in America?
Now Bob, you know where I stand, and how I feel, but did you also know that there are unchurched people of a different generation who need the church of today to reach them? ever heard the phrase "it takes all kinds"? while that saying usually summons up varying emotions it the present world we do need both. maybe we should spend less time trying to change the church of yesterday and start trying to raise up the leaders of the church of tommorrow, and seeking out that which is lost today, that God gives us to disciple today!
I have many great friends who truely love the church, as she currently is, and currently pastor said churches who want so desperatly to see God move in them. are they so wrong, or are they meeting a need for the Kingdom just as we are trying to meet a need for the Kingdom as well.
Love U man and I want to see this strang discipleship movement that cannot be defined by structure, past paradigms, or even with simple words...Succeed.
Mike, didn't see it but remember I didn't write the article. I hope you will read Dave's original post and all the comments. The birth of Jesus was spectacular as he points out. Dave also raises the question, was the willow gig spectacular or was it spectral gaze?
You and Judy have missed the depth of my concerns and I'm sorry anyone thought I was picking on Willow so that we looked better.
Mike, I also did what I said I was going to do. Because of the expense involved in doing the gigs across America at Christmastime and the millions invested in the mostly already reached, I didn't go to any of them and instead did an open house for all of our neighbors.
By the way that crystal church place -they spent over two million for their show. I heard this second hand so I might be off by a million.
koinania, you stinker, now you have changed your identity.
Now when did I ever say the old gig wasn't reaching people for Christ? When did I say it didn't take all types of church for all types of people?
However, I agree with David Fitch that the birth of Jesus was spectacular and that the willow gig may have possibly been spectral gaze. I was not there and Dave wasn't either so who wants to listen to anything we have to offer. But I did not write the article. You should read the article and nearly 50 comments posted on his blog. That is where you can take Dave Fitch on. He's a big boy.
If you decide to engage disciple making the way I describe you must understand that this non American paradigm and understanding of the supremacy of the Great Commission will never coexist in an established American church unless of course God can knock some people dead or out by performing a miracle. And, it would be His greatest miracle yet.
Koinania - I read your blog and I would like to help you (if you want hp) pull off what you describe.
It's a freebie as always!
Koinania, O.K. now I know who you are. I thought you were an identity thief.
We need to get together just as I promised. Now I have your KC address. We'll talk soon.
I did read the entire post of David's. He's way more intellectual than me, but it struck me, and several of the responders, that David cannot know how the "spectacular" show of Willow's impacted other people. This whole "spectral gaze" thing vs. spectacular or whatever ... well, I just can't see how it can be quantified, so ultimately it is only another theory no more, or less, I suppose, valid than the theory of evolution.
What are the "fruits" of any ministry? Then you'll know whether the tactics they are using are working or not -- whether it's Willow or True Vine or a lovely mid-sized church in northern Ind.
Mike, that is a great measure, "What are the fruits of the ministry."
Now what is fruit? Who is it really, who measures the fruit?
I guess I cannot comment on the millions of dollars spent on the church (mostly already reached) at Christmastime.
I just wonder what would happen in our part of the world (America) if every church instead of having those thousand(s) and million(s)dollar programs instead took another approach? Let say we gather together to read the Christmas story, share communion together and place the money budgeted for the program at the manger scene along with our own offerings. Then immediately give the money to the people Jesus spent most of His time with.
The message or headline may look like this: The Church united (yes I said united) gave what they had, so that the world would receive what Jesus has.
Bob - I long for the day that just one large church with that potential does just that. Imagine if just one dropped Christmas or Easter events and gave the cost through the members to those they are connected with that have needs.
Here is a challenge. Do you pastor a large church, Let's say 1,000 or more? Challenge your congregation to put their efforts into eliminating need in their local area for Easter. Funnel the money through the members to the needs your people are already connected with.
You have read the stories of the impact our small efforts have. Imagine the impact you could have with tens of thousands of dollars run through hundreds of people to meet the needs of the hurting in your community.
God willing this will happen. If we are ever blessed with the resources you will see us do it. I do not think there is any way to argue that this is not the right thing to do so take a risk for God.
You can either lead or wait to follow our lead.
mike e...I understand the point you make on the church of today still having an impact on and for some people...as a 21 year pursuer of my God, I am a direct "product" of the local church and all of its prgrams, events and buildings. As a matter of fact, I would imagine that it would be safe to say that every blogger here is a product of what God has used the local church to do. But here is the truth of it...and this does not, in my opinion (humble as it may be), nullify what God can still use the local church to do. However, at this time it appears that God is raising up groups of people to do more with less...for those, He is calling them to a higher level of commitment to Him and His Word because we can't lean on or stand behind events or programs any longer. Regardless if He is using the local church to reach people, He has now called me to something different. To ignore it and stay "safe" would not bode well with me I'm sure. Nor would I really want to.
I'm not quite sure what you are labeling as a theory. In my mind, what we are doing is really pretty scriptural in it's foundation and principles..go and make disciples is pretty simple and happens to be the very words of the Man Himself....Judy M
Judy: The theory in my post has nothing to do with what you, Bob, and Terry, and the others are doing.
The theory I was referencing is Fitch's "spectral gaze" theory he mentions in his post about Willow.
I'm with you. I'm a product of the church as we all know/knew it, too. I am also very interested in this "new" movement you all are invested in. In fact, I am invested in it, too. But I am not leaving the church as we all knew/know it to do what you all are doing.
Instead, I am trying to reach people in the church and encourage them to get their butts, as Bob likes to say, out of the pews and into the world.
Same goals, different approach. But my "theory" talk refers only to the spectral gaze thingy. I'm no philosopher or theologian, for that matter, but that just sounds beyond goofy to me.
I hope to meet all of you True Vine folks when I come to St. Louis next.
Mike - did you start your position on the missions board yet? I think you said you were going to shake things up when that happened.
Mike said, But I am not leaving the church as we all knew/know it to do what you all are doing.
The Planter, go to the church and do what you say. But you still have to leave the church and do what we are doing.(Jesus said so) You still have to leave it to do it. Do both, but don't forsake the other. You have to do what we are doing in order to influence the other BIG BUTTS (NOT IMPLYING ANYTHING ON YOUR PART) to do it or be it with you, then you can go to church and celebrate together.
You have to leave the church to become the Church! It will never happen inside the four walls or however many walls. Now fire back.
Bob: Well, of course, you doof! You know what I meant by "leave the church!" Are you still feverish?
Terry: We had our first mission board mtg last week -- well the first I was a part of. I'm very encouraged at this point. Right now I am laying some groundwork, finding out where people stand -- and this board, for hte most part, seems very interesting in trying to find ways to get outside of the church.
Right now I am hoping to have a proposal (of sorts, altho that sounds too formal) to present at our March meeting. Missions conference is in Feb and until after that, we (board) really can't focus on anything else.
Thanks for your continued prayers.
Mike, As soon as you guys get done planning your missions conference, while the mission is on hold, don't forget to come back to the mission that's on hold.
Your doof and feverish friend! What's a doof?
Mike - I am glad to hear you are following through with the missions board. If you email me some prayer requests I will be praying for you as you let God change pardigms.
One word of encouragement is to keep the first steps simple. I have found it is most important to open minds to possibilities before opening doors to walk through. If I can help in any way let me know.
Oh Bob...bob...bob...
You do like to play with words -- and make assumptions.
But I love ya anyway!
Terry, I'll get something out to you soon with some specific requests. Thank you my e-friend I've never met.
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