Visionary Question...
"If I took away your Sunday service(s) and your building(s), what would you have left?"
posted by Bob Carder @ 3:49 PM
12 comments
"If I took away your Sunday service(s) and your building(s), what would you have left?"
posted by Bob Carder @ 3:49 PM
12 comments
12 Comments:
In some churches they would have the wooden pulpit and the plexiglass pulpit and be arguing overwhich was the right one for the new outdoor service!
oh i can answer this one! we would have our travelling wednesday night study + dinner (and they devoted themselves to fellowship, teaching, breaking of bread...),
and our sunday night travelling prayer + tea + worship (...and to prayer)
and our PEOPLE! who are there for God and each other and not for a flashy building or flamboyant service on sunday.
Maybe we (the church0 have not experienced or facilitated growth. Here is a article that sums up my thoughts (although they are not orginal with me)!
Some Fundamental Principles of Growth Found in Acts 8-12.
"1. A church grows to the degree that it is able to move
from a state of introversion to a state of extroversion.
"2. A church grows to the degree that it is able to overcome
barriers that would naturally inhibit the expansion of the
gospel.
"3. A church grows best when it functions energetically in
extensive and intensive evangelism.
"4. A church grows best when the total body of believers is
mobilized and trained in continued ministries of praying,
sharing, witnessing, evangelizing.
"5. A church grows best where the soil has been carefully
and prayerfully prepared for the gospel.
"6. A church grows best when evangelism is undergirded by a
Spirit- directed strategy and relevant structure that rests on
biblical principles to guide the onward movement.
"7. A church grows best when the work is properly people
related.
"8. A church grows best by homogeneous units of society.
"9. A church grows best by corporate-personality decisions
and conversions in cultures of family, tribe, community, and
people groupings.
"10. A church grows best when the church releases the
ablest, most experienced, and most qualified men of God for
evangelism and church expansion.
"11. A church grows best by team ministries under the
guidance of strong and wise leadership.
"12. A church grows best where the gospel is clearly,
relevantly, and persuasively preached, Jesus Christ is honored as
Savior and Lord, and the Holy Spirit is believed and obeyed.
"13. A church grows best where men of divine calling and
qualification, faith, and prayer are able to guide the church
body to live in the experience of the reality of God in the midst
of His people and meet their needs" (Peters, 1981:209-210).
John
Check out this post from DeepChurch: http://deepchurch.org.uk/2007/05/15/the-wellness-of-church/
They argue that if we base our ministry paradigms on reactions to what we perceive to be wrong with the church, the result will be 'pathological ecclesiology.' Our starting point can't be what's wrong with the church, but making disciples. It doesn't mean we ignore problems, but that we put our focus on what we should be doing - which is making disciples.
Blessings!
Rick, I'll check it out! We don't build new direction by just pointing out the flaws of the present.God builds new movements by helping present leaders see the flaws and become concerned enough to do something about it.
This blog points to flaws in order to create a level of discomfort that may cause some really good leaders who already see that the ship have a slow leak. Why let her leak when we know it's leaking.
Many leaders know it's leaking but do not know ho to fix it. Many are stirred by the Spirit of God and left with an empty sinking feeling.
I have discovered some prophetic gifting in my life. For me not to speak out against what I see, does cause me to sin. I realize prophetic gifting often lead to hating the one with the gift. That is not your case with me. But remember I would rather not be the one with the news that stirs with a variety of uunwanted responses.
I long for leaders who have a knowledge that the church is broke and do not know what to do with it to take a good look at our Christian roots and the life and walk and message of Christ.
There is a fine line with being too negative and sweeping things under the carpet.
I know you feel I'm too harsh at times but it is what I feel I must say.
This would not effect us at all. We would still have our multiple lines of discipleship and our Wed. night fellowship/worship gathering. All of our ministry would be in tact because we don't have a building or a Sunday morning service(although we are starting a worship home group on Sunday morning soon). Good question!!! I had an interesting question that crossed me a few weeks ago that I posted on my blog. I'd be interested to here your response!!! Blessings on you brother!!!
I meant hear in my comment, sorry!!
Hey Bob. I fully agree that we need to see that what *isn't* essential to being church is what *is* often keeping us from making disciples. You do a great job of pointing that out. It's just that in many of the circles in which I run I often see passion for church deconstruction is greater than the passion for disciples.
I'd rather worship and minister in an Anglo-Catholic, hierarchical cathedral that has disciple-making going on than in a house church that thinks they're better than others simply because they don't have a building or a pastor and because they meet on tuesdays instead of Sundays.
It's not the structure that makes a group a disciple-making church. It's disciple making that makes it a disciple making church.
Good stuff!
If you took that stuff away we would be left with the church.
The church would still gather in small groups and the church is not the building or location but people...
Hey Rick:
I truly like what you are saying...but would like to press something you said about structure not making disciples.
I think my question is...what do you mean by structure?
The reason I ask is because disciple making does not occur in a vacuum. The one thing I learned working in a church is that God uses structures to create habit change…or discipleship…
I think that is why we see Christ using structure to create 12 dispels…
But I was unclear by what you meant by structures so thought I would ask?
What I was saying was that simply rejecting conventional church structures does not ensure discipleship. In fact, I would strongly agree with you that we need structure/strategy to effectively multiply disciples.
My initial comment was about an article that suggested that if we base our ecclesiology on a reaction to a faulty ecclesiology we will still have pathological ecclesiology. In fact, we may be even worse off.
I believe that if our reaction to attractional church is to simply reject all forms of corporate worship, paid staff, buildings, or events for 'church' in Starbuck's and 'mission' as fixing your neighbor's car, then this will probably be the final nail in the coffin.
Not having a Sunday service or a building doesn't make a church more pure or biblical, which is the attitude I was (possibly mistakenly) picking up from some of the comments here. Simply rejecting those things is the easy way out.
We're discussing this on my blog right now and this morning there's an interesting post by an Anglican who attended an Eastern Orthodox Ascension service (how many of our churches even remembered it was Ascension Day? How many pastors have ever preached on the Ascension?). It's under the entry 'Disciple-making strategies vs. Church planting strategies.' (www.honest2blog.wordpress.com)
Anonymous -A Church grows...When disciples making disciples is the supreme mission of the Church!
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