IF YOU...
*If you went to church yesterday how was it?
Tell us, please!!!
*If you didn't go to church, tell us why.
Tell us, please!!
posted by Bob Carder @ 12:01 AM
48 comments
Monday, August 13, 2007
Tell us, please!!!
*If you didn't go to church, tell us why.
Tell us, please!!
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48 Comments:
It was one of the best gatherings I've been in in quite some time. The message was about the wrath of God that is born out of the passionate love of God.
Good stuff.
ours was good, too. our pastor is stepping down, and he prayed over the one who is stepping up. i asked what word God has for our body, and he said that he thinks things have been growing for a while and are ready to explode. the believers sang together, prayed together, honored one another, and served one another.
the pastor shared his thanks that things in the body don't depend on him, and a new disciple testified that he will do whatever he can for the kingdom in this pastor's transition time. a new disciple--i thought of you, bob, when victor stepped up!
does it sound "traditional?" maybe, but the heart of this church is lay ministry, and to realize that a pastoral change will probably not affect attendance, tithes, offerings, or programs, because this is a church of believers gathering together instead of people coming to hear a guy talk, made it inspirational.
I didn't go to "church" I was WITH my Church family. We had great conversation, GREAT steak, and GREAT cake... :) It definitely felt more Sabbath-esque than going to a church service does.
Hi Jessica!
Were there any lost people present?
Just curious.
Bill, I was with Jessica and other members of the Christ family. It was awesome as is the case whenever we gather for whatever reason.
With reference to your question:
In the traditional American Church we invite the unsaved to the service. In our movement we the Church never gather at church because we are the Church and we spend more time in the world building relationships and instead we focus on inviting them to Jesus.
A better question might be, were we present with the lost this past week. Not were the lost present.
You can have the lost present for an event...anyone can do that. But are you present with lost daily in relationships with them. That's a whole different measure.
Your questions carries little relevance in our movement. Were they present? For us it is "Were we present in their lives." For us, being present in the lives of lost people is a non negotiable.
Bill, is your church inviting people to be present for a service or event or are there more of you actually present in their lives?
It just felt like the early church as believers gathered together to break bread and share the grace of God with one another.
Just curious.
Bill - why would you invite lost people to worship the Lord with you? The Bible calls them the enemies of God.
I just wonder where you got that idea from? Was it the Bible? The next thing you know you will be serving them communion.
Terry,
Not sure why you feel it necessary to be snotty.
I guess I'm really confused now about what you all are doing.
Do I understand you right that lost people aren't welcome when your community of believers gather? If I was part of your community, would I not be permitted to invite my lost friends to accompany me when I gather with my faith community???
See, I gathered with my faith community Sunday. There were probably 500 of us. We met in a building. We worshipped. We engaged the Word. There were lost people among us experiencing the interaction between God and his people. And new disciples are entering the Kingdom all the time.
Pardon my incredulity. I don't mean to be offensive. I'm just becoming more and more confused about the mission you all are on. How in the world can we make disciples if we don't allow them to experience our community life together as the body?
Bob,
Sorry...I replied to Terry before I read your reply to me.
Of course we have to be present in the lives of unbelievers through the week. But I guess I don't understand the practice of banning them from our gatherings as a community of faith. So, is the deal that you don't let them experience you're community life together as the body until they pray the prayer and seal the deal?
Just curious.
I guess the resaon I'm so perplexed by this is because I myself began following Christ because I spent time among believers passionately worshipping God and engaging the Word together. What caused me to surrender to Christ was the reality of God's presence among them as we gathered.
Bill, you really don't have an accurate picture of what we are doing. The use of words like banned and not permitted do not convey the heart and spirit of this discussion.
Our goal is NOT to fill the house with unbelievers. Our goal is to spread out across our region leading people to Jesus. As they come to Jesus, they are quickly enfolded into the Family of God, the Body of Christ , and quickly baptized as their first act of obedience. As they go along they gather with the Church to share in communion and the fellowship of other believers while they continue to be discipled to make disciples.
1. We don't go to church and cannot invite them to church. We don't have a church to invite them to.
2. The Christ family is the Body of Christ. We have found that discipleship breaks down when the unsaved are invited to a place like church as if to say "hey" I got em here, you lead em to Jesus.
3. We don't want unbelievers to act like believers until they know the One they should believe in and receive Him.
4. We celebrate communion as the Body of Christ not the Body of Christ mixed up with others who do not know Jesus taking communion.
5. We are not an attractional model that does stuff like build bigger buildings, have a better staff, better programs, larger budgets and more butts in pews. When people come to Christ and are enfolded into the Body of Christ they come for Jesus not for the show. Jesus is all we have to offer in our gathered Christ community.
Remember, we are a disciples making disciples movement. We get em in the family of God before enfolding them into our gatherings. Can you imagine what the Church can be like with 50,000 Christ followers inviting people to Jesus and taking it upon themselves personally to fulfill the Great Commission. How about 100,000 or a million.
Bill, How many unsaved people do you think there are going to Church who claim to know Christ but do not demonstrate an intimate relationship with Jesus and do not have clear evidence of Spiritual transformation? While watching the others who go to church they learn how to be the church. But sadly, they miss meeting the transforming Jesus as they counterfeit following Jesus.
The unsaved do not need to see the church in worship they need to see the Church living incarnational Christ representing lives in the world so that they can see Jesus through us so that through us Jesus can redeem them and so that through us they can be discipled and enfolded into the Body of Christ.
Bill, I do not believe Terry is being snotty. Terry is asking you to show him in Scripture why you make the claim or case you are making. He is directly asking you to show him in the Word why we should gather as the body of Christ and along with the world at the same time. I do see you skirting the questions when Terry asks you to show him in the scripture why you take the position you take. I know Terry and He is not being snotty, He is pushing for a Scriptural answer in support of your position.
Just answer his question with a scriptural truth and you and he will be fine.
Love you, Bill
Why go? That's what I want to know.
I went to church Sunday, and it was interesting. A call to fast and pray, listen and obey... in a focused cry to God for specific direction as we choose to follow Him in a new direction... A great response, even from some pewsters (new word) who have probably never fasted and prayed before.
Bill, after I read the Organic Church by Neil Cole, my mind wandered several times to his assertion that every new believer needs to be quickly connected to the head of the church... the pastor (NOT) I mean Jesus! A missionary friend said that we too often yank the bait out of the mouth of the fish when we fish for men... we share about Jesus and how he's changed our lives... and about how he made a way for reconciliation with God, and just about the time they are ready to bite, we invite them to "church"!
I am coming to believe that by inviting unbelievers, or even brand new believers, to a Sunday church service, we connect them to an "organization", with which they may become quickly satisfied... and never get them connected in intimate dialogue and relationship with Jesus.
Three years ago, I was all about attracting unbelivers/the unchurched to a Sunday morning service. The Spirit of God has twisted my little theology of ministry paradigm all the way around.
Okay Bob. God bless you. May He continue to give you great fruitfulness.
In answer to Terry's question, yes, in fact my thought of unbelievers present as believers gather is from scripture.
In 1st Corinthians 14 Paul is giving remedial instructions to the church there to bring their gatherings (the NLT says "meetings") back into order. He gives them specific instructions for the sake of the unbelievers who are present in their meetings.
"So you see that speaking in tongues is a sign not for believers, but for unbelievers. Prophecy, however, is for the benefit of believers, not unbelievers. Even so, if unbelievers or people who don't understand these things come into your church meetings and hear everyone speaking in an unknown language, they will think you are crazy. But if all of you are prophesying, and unbelievers or people who don't understand these things come into your meeting, they will be convicted of sin and judged by what you say. As they listen, their secret thoughts will be exposed, and they will fall to their knees and worship God, declaring, "God is truly here among you."
This is exactly what happened to me as I experienced the reality of God in the midst of his people.
Paul doesn't seem to think that unbelievers present as believers gather, worship, and prophesy is a strange thing. He expects it and instructs the believers on how to consider them as they gather.
I trust your strategy will bear much fruit. It's just much different than what we're beginning here.
Our strategy is to form 4 or 5 believers together as missionaries to the culture who will gather unbelievers into life-giving communities. Our prayer here is that in our faith communities the lost, broken, and hurting will outnumber the saved. That the saved will see themselves as missionaries to the lost, gather with them, do life together with them, and invite into the way of Jesus.
Bill,
I have known some of these guys and this movement a while and I hate to say it but - you are fighting a looseing battle discussing the NO CHURCH church mentality and/or philosophy.
Non-traditional people of God understand the whole idea of doing things differently to reach more lost people for Christ - but this movement has a strange way of offending people (intentionally) who are already Christ followers, while loving on the one who does not know Christ!
There reason for that is because if you are offended, maybe you will think about what they are saying more or even battle in your mind what truly should and should not be.
There take on different philosophies of ministry is not up for discussion unless you want to get bashed.
Only in discussing there philosophy with an open mind will you fair well in this blogspot.
I will be refuted for this statement by either Terry or Bob or some other close NonChurch believer, but if you want proof of what I am saying - just read through some of the archives. You'll see it - and quickly!
Anonymous, How quick you are to offer such harsh statements of which I am not offended. Look through the archives and be quick to see the theme, All Christ followers are to make disciples who make disciples. If you cannot accept that you cannot accept the Great Commission of God.
There is a reason you are anonymous. I boldly stand in the spotlight holding up the Great Commission. I stand strong for the mission of Jesus. I love the Church -the family of God I do like applaud the church one attends. I applaud any work of God's people with a disciples making disciples core value. I speak against the Pharisee as did the ONE who died speaking against the Pharisee.
If you are offended maybe you should be. Jesus made His mission and purpose for us very clear. I'm willing to be bashed, ridiculed and even killed for this Truth!
I am unashamed to post, why do you hide anonymously? Are you ashamed for what you stand for?
Bill, that sounds like us!
Anonymous -to clarify, I do not like a go to church mentality over being the Church. I guess you already knew that.
You do not know us, nor do you accurately portray our approach. I would even say you are unfair in your assumptions. We have one theme (check out the archives), to lift up Jesus and to make disciples who make disciples.
The church in America is in trouble. Unless you and others see that we are in trouble and we will never be able to fix the problem. If you have a leak in your boat, better to fix the leak than to ignore it. :)
Am I clear? I love you as a child of God. We are not enemies. In fact we are brothers or sisters whatever the anonymous case may be! We are just on a different mission, perhaps? Tell me if I am wrong.
Bill, when I say that sounds like us there is a difference as I read between your lines. We will gather the unsaved who will become saved and join with the saved.
When Jesus calls us to gather in the sky to meet Him it will be those who are already gathered who will gather to go.
Our focus is on reaching the multitudes who are like sheep without a Shepherd.
We pray for you and you (please) pray for us.
Anon - You are accurate in much you say. This blog is not to convert the confessors but to call into question every practice and let it be examined by all.
The Modern American church in most cases discourages such dialogue. If it offends you why are you here? No one is forced to comment on this blog. If you see a viewpoint expressed that you disagree with, why are you commenting? Are you also trying to bash or convert or whatever you accuse others of doing?
The result of this blog is some are offended but others are convicted and start to open themselves to new ways in which God works. Let me assure you that on this blog we may look like the aggressors but in our daily lives it is the traditional church people who are the aggressors towards us. I have had young pastors call me horrible names to my face because I asked them if they let unbeliever’s attend their services and take communion. Why is the question so radical? It is just a question. I think our churches have grown so used to not being questioned that any question is offensive.
I have had cowards on this blog email me privately and ask me not to comment on their blog. They even deleted some of my comments and not all so I may be taken out of context. These same "Spiritual Defenders" then come back here sometimes anonymously and trash me with name calling.
Our movement is not about drawing in the already converted. How many of you traditional church people can say that?
This comment has been removed by the author.
Terry,
Bro...if you're speaking about me in your next to last paragraph let me go on record to say that I have never, not once, ever posted a comment here anonymously. That's not my style. If I don't have the stones to say something WITH my name attached I won't say it at all.
If your strategy is bearing fruit and disciples are being made...kudos! Who am I to question it...even if I don't understand much of it.
Bill – in the passage you quoted Paul is using a hypothetical to drive home a point not giving instruction on inviting the unsaved to church.
Okay Terry. Rock on brother.
I wonder how often we interpret scripture to match what we do instead of matching what we do to the clear teaching of scripture.
(sigh)
Bill,
I know these guys from way back and I will only allow them to speculate about who I am.
This is my approach for many reasons.
I don't fear anything but God. I certainly do not fear your slander/peer pressure to get me to fess up to who I am.
Bill, these guys have made great strides and have put lots of thought into their ideologies, but the way I see their movement is just that - something THEY have done. What do I mean?
Jesus did not cry out with a loud and whimpy nor slanderous voice saying to the crowds, "Iam the one you should follow, Iam the Messiah, no really Iam...oh yes Iam....oh yes Iam...where are you going?"
Jesus loved the world so much... He didn't strive for His call, He simply stepped into it. We don't have to strive for what God is doing in us. The Bible says, "Fight the good fight of faith..." NOT each other and certainly not for our movement. Holding on to our faith is hard enough or the Bible would not call it a fight!
Only Jesus had the right to pick out the pharisees and put them in their place because only He knows what they needed.
By the way, anonymous is an option that you do not have to allow, you allow it to draw more postings and then you put them down for it.
I am sure this statement will be refuted as well!
Oh boy, let's keep rocking on...This could turn over some stones that need to be turned. Conflict isn't a bad thing, in fact, it is essential in order to attain intimacy with one another. Rick Warren calls it the tunnel of conflict that leads to intimacy. So let's not run from it, instead let's run to it.
By the way we gather together with the unsaved and we invite them into our lives during the week and on weekends. We are not exclusive here. Try to expand your imagination while lowering your defenses. I love it when one of my unsaved neighbors comes over and says to me, I'll have you guys over for some Indian curry before you leave the apartment complex. Will any weekend work? Even after the curry we will have them in our home and the kids fishing on our pond along with a chicken bar-b-cue. These Muslims need the Lord. They would never come to my church if I had one anyway. We don't attend church (a place) we teach living as the Church as a seamless lifestyle. We do gather as the Church as a corporate time for worship, praise, communion, sharing, food etc and we also meet in homes during the week in groups of different sizes.
My (our)focus is not on the Gathering of our Church family for communion (the cup)it is on the relationships we can build and to build as many as we can as long as we have breathe in these broken temples in order to show them Jesus so that Jesus can reach those who are hungry for Him.
I spent a majority of my life getting ready for Sunday. I had little or no time for those around me. It took every ounce of energy to be good enough to grow the church enough. I lived under the pressure of human success. I was still driven to lead people to Jesus and I did it (with God's help)but without deepening relationships. Our church was too large for me to have those relationships. I now see it as a flawed approach. New Christ followers need someone to walk with them 24 hours a day if and as needed. I couldn't get very many people to walk with them and when I found them the new convert was uncomfortable because they had no personal relationship with that person.
Our challenge in St. Louis is to create a disciples making disciples movement of 100+ clusters of small Christ communities (50 to 100) who are actively engaging the lost everyday and where the live work and play.
The American church often uses inviting people to church as the main tool of evangelism and discipleship. My home health care nurse did it to me, she talked about how great her pastor was and how wonderful the messages are. She hung out the carrot but never talked about her love for Jesus and how He has changed her life.
I'm not suggesting we kill the American church, I am suggesting we kick some butts out of the pew. Believers need to be taught that it is everyone's responsibility to build relationships so they can make disciples of the lost. Sadly, while we are so busy inviting people to church on Sunday those who are open to Jesus on Monday never find Him.
We have one attraction, it is Jesus. Nothing we have to offer will entertain or top the other shows in town. We never have to compete, we are never consumed with buildings, better programs, bigger budgets and the drive for success. We have only Jesus to share and JESUS is enough.
What have here in S.L. is a small movement of disciple making that could grow exponentially as new believers grasp their responsibility to make disciples who then make disciples who also make disciples.
Because of all of this, I cannot return to what I spent my whole life in. I tried that and for me at least, this is what I have been longing for.
Mike E, how did you stay out of this one? Are you that anon guy? Come on, be honest.
Love you brother...Let's kick it around a bit. I can't believe you are absent here. Are you absent here?
Bob, Did you ever read that link I sent you? No, I am not anon guy! I know it will hit you like lumpy gravy on mashed taters, but we all need to be challanged! You are right,(can't believe I said that) the church of today is in trouble, the church of yesterday was in trouble,and the church of the future will be in trouble. The reason is like in the article, it has humans involved. WE are ALL imperfect beings, serving a perfect God!
Bob,
As I read what you've written in your last comment I can't find anything I disagree with. I too recognize the ineffectiveness of inviting the lost to our building to watch our Sunday morning program. No arguments there.
My point is simply this: Believers can gather and worship and commune, and engage the word and it not be a program or an event. My disagreement with you and Terry is simply that I believe the lost should be welcomed in those gatherings to experience the BODY. They experience you one-on-one through the week, but they need to see the BODY of Christ loving one another, worshipping together, encountering God together.
I guess I have just become increasingly perplexed with the rigidity and intolerance I see when I come here. I expect the institutional church to be rigid, narrow and controlled with a "my way or the highway" ethos. I guess I just didn't expect that from what you're doing there.
I'm beginning to understand why the Lord didn't permit me to come be a part of what you're doing. It seems I just wouldn't fit.
That is all.
Bill - I never said non-believers were not welcome. I simply questioned you as to the practice of inviting them.
All of our meetings throughout the week involve the things you want non-believers to see and experience. In our small groups we show love to one another, we worship, we encounter God. We encourage new disciples that have not accpeted Christ to attend those things.
In our worship gathering we come together to share the life of Christ and those who do not know Christ cannot do that.
It is not rigid or intolerant. If you find our gathering and don't know Christ we will welcome you. We will share our food with you. I will personally explain to you why we are there and what we will be doing. I just prefer to worship with the family of God.
There are some very fundamental things that change when you discourage the option of using invitation to church as an evangelism tool. People stop and think about sharing their faith personally. The level of intimacy increases when you know everyone at the worship gathering. Instead of building intimacy in small groups we are building it throughout the church.
We do not have a "my way or the highway attitude". I feel free to question your approach and you and anon may not be used to that. I understand. A lot of this has not been questioned openly for many years. I am not asking you to adopt my methods or convert to my ways. You are free to do what you want.
In the end all we have really done is turned the system upside down. Gather the non-believers to the small groups and one on one meetings and build intamacy in the larger worship gathering with the Christ followers. Let every believer take responsibility for the Great Commission don't leave it to the church and pastors. The difference is foundationally different and produces some amazing results. If you don't want to do it this way - OK - no one is trying to make you.
Bobert, other than my accidental anonymous post (which I outed myself on), I do not post anonymously. You know that poster doesn't "read" like me. :)
Which is not to say that I don't agree with much of what he/she wrote.
But why join in when everyone is doing such a great job of making my points for me ... ?
Terry & Bob.
Believe it or not guys...I'm in your corner here. We all know that to be missional in this culture we have to change. That horse has been beaten to death and ground into dog food here. I'm with you in that. I've appreciated Bob's heart and passion since I began chatting with him. I hope God gives you countless disciples.
I just hope you'll recognize that authentic, faithful disciples are being made in ways that differ from yours. It is God who gives the increase. Anytime a person enters the Kingdom and begins following Jesus, it's cause to celebrate...even if they entered the Kingdom while sitting among believers in a church building during a worship service.
bill
Precisely my point, Bill, all along.
I agree we are ALL bound by the Great Commission -- where I've ever differed is that we are not ALL called to implement it in the same way and we need to give grace to those who are called to a different implementation.
Then we need to reach into the pews and shake up some people who have fallen asleep in the pew and show them the more excellent way -- with the very grace that has been extended to each of us. Each of us, who, NOT incidentally, are not "doing it" perfectly.
I couldn't agree more with Bill and Mike. There has to be more than one way to implement our call to make disciples.
Terry-- correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying that nonbelievers are welcome to your worship gatherings just not necessarily invited? I hope not, because that doesn't make any sense at all.
Also, can you please clarify what this statement you made means: "We encourage new disciples that have not accepted Christ to attend those things."
What do you mean by "disciples" who haven't accepted Christ--I'm not sure I've heard that before...
Since I'm weighing in, I'll just go all out. You can rant about your philosophy and approach all you want. I believe I have a good understanding of it. I, however, am someone who has experienced and been a part of the work you are doing and believe that God has called me to a 'traditional/institutional' church.
And I think God is pleased with what's going on at our church. Disciples are being made. Is it perfect--NO! But neither is your church/movement/gathering/etc.
I'd just like to give a shout out to all of my brothers and sisters in ministry who are faithfully living out their callings in a different context than what is advocated here (i.e., big bad traditional churches). A lot of time is devoted toward, how shall I say it, "critiquing" the American Church. But at the end of the day, when you describe what you are doing I always find myself saying, "So what????" Because, to me, it doesn't sound any different than my life and what I'm doing! I'm guessing I'm not alone, either.
Matt Carder
Matt - there is another way. This blog explores that way. If you don't agree with what we are exploring then why are you coming here? I do not understand why opponents of this philosophy feel compelled to bring a defense of the status quo here. I do not go to traditional model church blogs and bash their ways.
Millions of believers all over the world are doing just what I am trying to explain to you. They are forsaking the tradition of "come to church". Where this is being done Christianity is growing much faster than the population. where traditional church is the predominant model Christianity is losing ground.
Wake up America before you go the way of Europe.
Many of us come here, Terry, because we love Bob -- and we are VERY interested in what he's doing.
And, not least, because he has invited us into discussion.
Questionning is not bashing.
If you don't agree, you don't have to participate.
Matt: Good to hear from you. You still in Muncie? My daughter, who we tried to connect with your church, starts her senior year at BSU this week -- unbelievable. And still unconnected to any church -- very sad.
Bless you!
wow I got through all of that,
so two points, and I'm not as articulate as all you scholars who typically post on this blog so bare with me.
point numero uno.
The proof is in the pudding guys...
While the "traditional" church may have a limited amount of fruit to show, it is in reality pretty much totally ineffective and dead in our modern culture. I mean really... take a step back and look at the big picture. Is Jesus being glorified in a real and tangible way in our culture as a whole?
#2 what was my second point....
oh yeah, I'll just speculate for a minute and maybe be corrected later, but I would imagine that the "real" Christ followers that can be found in America's modern church are probably part of an inner circle within a large body of people in a given church. This was undoubtingly my own experience in a church of 4000 "members," and of other churches I have attended. It seems that there is always a core of believers or I think it would be more appropriate to call it a click, that are really living their faith at least more than others in their church. And of course God works in His people no matter what and nobody can discount that. But it just seems retarded to have this big organization with all its frills and pretty things costing hundreds of thousands of millions of dollars so a group of 50 out of 500 can truly experience the life of Christ. It really doesn’t take all of that.
I think the church as a whole is doing a lot of harm and I’m not sure of how much good it is doing for people who have a desire to know God. I would venture to say that you would have a hard time seeing the difference when comparing two American families side by side, one being church goers, and the other being a typical Godless American family. This is somewhat of a generalization but what most “churches” advocate as the ideal is not much different from the world. It’s the Madison Avenue gospel. Have all the good things the American dream has to offer and God in your life. Worship the demons of Hollywood movies, fashion, luxury, excessive living, college education, sports, elaborate vacations, and the list goes on, but your family at the core really is Christ centered, right? This is what is visible of the American church.
I said all of that just to say that the church as most know it is corrupt and broken. It sadly has become this ugly disfigurement that is now the American Church. I realize that, and want no part in it whatsoever. So… I just want to break it down and do it simple, just like the early church. Live for Jesus, make disciples.
No frills.
Beyond a shadow of any doubt God works through traditional churches, but if you can’t see how screwed up it really is, then you will never understand this movement, remember it is a movement not just Bob and Terry but many others also.
Wow - we are turning over the stones that need to be turned over.I couldn't be more pleased.
Mike, I know who anon is (I think) and if I'm right he may truly have a ax to grind. (Todd is that you?) If I'm wrong you'll never know because he remains anom.
Also, my friend, I know your heart is for the local church and I also grieve for her. You do agree with the supremacy of the Great Commission and that is a huge jump for you. I appreciate that. Now that you agree a shake up is in order. What do you pray tell we do about it. What can you do to help those in the pew move out. I have an idea: Place pins or tacks in every pew. You have an up and down oops and ??? all during the service. Invite me to church when you do such a thing. I'll be laughing under the pew of your momma.
Terry: I appreciate your clarification on the unsaved not being invited per say but always welcome. We have even had some of our family invite them. Which pleased me. But the focus is not on inviting people to church but rather inviting them to Jesus by living in their lives.
John, I read the link, and surprisingly perhaps to you, I love it. Anytime one can challenge status quo right or wrong I love to at least give em an ear. The mysterious link is: www.the-next-wave-enzine.com (I think) if that is not right, I'll get it to you.
Matt, my firstborn and only son. I love you and I love what you do for Jesus. You never heard me critique what you are doing in Muncie, In. I agree you are making disciples. We are not in no way condemning you or the call of God on your life. Of course, you know that and I say this so others may know. It pleases me when I hear that you are privileged to preach the word to 3,000 people. I'm please that you are raising disciples in your new church within a church. I'm proud. Go get em boy!
We are engaging a philosophically different approach to disciple making. It doesn't start with inviting people to church because we have none. It starts with a methodology of disciples making disciples who make disciples who are enfolded into the Church (the Body of Christ). America doesn't need a crash or elimination of the American Church to this we all agree. At this blog you will read some failures in the local American Church. Perhaps by identifying them, and by even putting my reputation at risk some of those areas will be addressed. To this, I am willing to lay my life on the line. As you know, I've been shot before, many times, and the last time almost finished me off.
Matt, we do not invite unbelievers to our gatherings on purpose but they are welcome. We had 30 Muslims join our first gathering in the park. I guess maybe I invited them by befriending them in the park that day. Keep in mind our focus in not on the Sunday event -it is on a lifestyle of disciple making.
What you read on this blog is a turn it upside down and see what stones needs to be overturned for the sake of the Body of Christ in America and the fulfillment of the Great Commission.
There is a sense of discomfort and even defensiveness often present but we are here to stretch the mind and the way we do and live being the Church. And, there is a huge difference between the doing church and living as the Church. Keep pressing on.. Keep doing whatever Jesus calls you to.
Bill: Thanks for the encouragement and my dog doesn't like beaten down dog food. We trust that you will do as we do make disciples who make disciples. The drum we beat is every believers responsibility to make disciples who make disciples. It is not trying to fill the pew on Sunday.
Terry: Again, you are my person of peace in Scripture that I prayed for and you are a quick disciple multiplier. Keep up the great work. I wish all of you could see inside the heart of Pastor Terry. While he is a straightforward truth teller he is unwavering in his truth convictions. As you get to know him here and on his Terry Goodwin blog (see the link on the left side of my blog)you will agree more than disagree with the mission He has engaged.
Brian: I dare say, none of us would claim to be scholars. You are in good company. We need to hear your heart because you speak for the multitudes in America who feel as you do. You have articulated very well a condition present in the Church of America. Many like you are disconnected and desire a different more simple New Testament way. I share your passion. I've done the other, now I long for that which you speak of. A simple way, a New Testament way. The Church in America is not all wrong (you know that), there are bright spots, but the problems you mention are real ones indeed. I PRAY ALL OTHERS WILL LISTEN TO YOU AND READ YOUR WORDS WITH AN OPEN HEART AND MIND LONG ENOUGH TO SEE THAT WHAT YOU SAY MATTERS AND WHAT YOU SAY IS TRULY WHAT MANY ARE FEELING. I want to be with you in capturing those disconnected from the church but longing to be the Church that lives for Jesus in authentic relationships and transparency. I would love for you to email me: bcarder@centurytel.net I need to know more about you.
TO ALL IN BLOG LAND: Our disciples making disciples movement in St. Louis, MO USA is our best attempt to mobilize believers to be the Church that incarnationally lives Jesus before the world so that through us Jesus can redeem them for eternity and so that through us they can be discipled to disciple others who do the same. We will likely never have a choir, sound system, attractive building, great programs, large budgets and be the main attraction in town, but we will have a pure movement of disciple making at the core and heart of our movement. A Church in action everyday is our aim and remains our non negotiable. The resources we have (because we do not have all the overhead) goes directly into the mission and the people we seek to reach.
We are just crazy enough to believe that if Jesus can do this in the New Testament and in Africa, Asia, India and China that He will also do it here in the hottest, most humid place in America, that place, St. Louis Missouri. Actually a nice place to live and raise a family.
Having said all of that, let's keep the pool stirred up, we are all challenged that way. Let's just get stuff off our chests and level up with each other. :)
Together in making disciples who make disciples (not just in words but in actions) -thePlanter
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Terry,
In your response to Matt you questioned why "opponents" to your philosophy come here and defend the status quo.
I can't speak for everyone, but I can speak for me...I feel relatively safe speaking for Mike and Matt. I don't think any of us are opponents of what you are doing there.
The only thing I oppose is an attitude that sounds like, "We are the only truly Biblical ones and everyone who is not doing what we're doing is ridiculous, lazy, cowardly, and inferior as a disciple."
Now, I know you haven't actually said those words. You may not even be thinking those things. But in observing this blog from the outside...that is the tone that comes across.
I'm sure God is going to do awesome things through your ministry there. Why not teach those who are stuck in churchianity through your example and stories of your fruitfulness instead of tearing them down?
They'll follow your lead by observing your fruitfulness and seeing in you a humble heart and spirit much quicker than they'll follow you because you've beaten them down verbally.
Very well said Bill!
Hey Bill, you aren't slamming my blog here are you? Anonymous, why hide, can't you see your safe unless you get testy.
For those who take what I say the way you take what I say, let me say your criticisms are always welcome. I would like for you to know IT IS NOT MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY! IN NO WAY DO WE FEEL WE FOUND THE ANSWER ON ALL COUNTS. WE JUST KNOW THAT MAKING DISCIPLES WHO ALSO MAKE DISCIPLES IS WHAT JESUS COMMANDED. YOU CAN DISAGREE WITH THAT, BUT THIS IS A NON-NEGOTIABLE FOR EVERY CHRIST FOLLOWER NEW AND OLD IN THE MOVEMENT If it comes through youR filter that we own the market of how to do it right, that is incorrect, but it's your filter not mine. The principles do not change the methods will.We have never said that we are right and you all are wrong.People (we) make assumptions and formulate opinions but no one ever asked me if I thought our way was the only way, did you? So some of this on all counts me included seems a bit unfair. I'm glad we rotten sinners can agree on what we which we all are.
Let's keep pressing on, with many more rocks to overturn and just think we may overturn some much needed answers and suggestions along the way.
This discussion is valuable and we are making progress.
"Hey Bill, you aren't slamming my blog here are you?"
Nope...wouldn't do that. Not my style.
A friend doesn't slam another friend. However a friend does speak up if he sees or hears something that is coming across in a way that differs from the intention.
A friend cares about and looks after his friend recognizing that we all have blind spots.
Bill you said,now, I know you haven't actually said those words. You may not even be thinking those things. But in observing this blog from the outside...that is the tone that comes across.
This was addressed to Terry but the blog is mine. What say you?
As a bonus I'm sure glad we are all friends. :)
There must be two of us. LOL---:)
This is not the same anonymous as just spoke. I am the earlier anonymous that fueled some conversations earlier, not the recent.
I am a bit late responding but here it goes. I was in church the other day. What a great service and delight to worship Christ, my savior. The music was a mixture of hymns and choruses. The message was filled with inspiring thoughts and pointed to Christ. I was moved by the worship music mostly. The fellowship of the believers is always a neat time - though brief...shaking hands and all.... As for the distractions; we sit close to the front so to give focus on the right things.
I did wish that I was challenged a bit to take my faith and the Truth I heard to others. But this is really my responsibility.
Blessings in Worship this week!
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