BETTER YET! Let's prove it.
Better yet, let's put this to the test.
Is your Church controlling you when it comes to the ministries you can create or serve in? Will they allow you to serve where the Holy Spirit is leading you to serve.
Can you decide what ministries your church is involved in?
Would your church leadership bless you to take 20+ quality leaders and start a new disciple-making church?
Better yet - Let's prove it.
Tell your pastor that God's Holy Spirit is leading you to leave the church to start a Disciple-making Church and tell him that 20-30 "very important" (name them) leaders are joining with you. Then ask Him if you have His blessing. Try to keep a straight face here. (Mike and John) You should try this. You are both ornery enough to pull this off.
If your pastor will bless you and release you & the people to do this you are in a God honoring -God releasing ministry. If your pastor does not give you his blessing than you are in a system of control. Jesus and His plan to reach the world is one of releasing to walk in Holy Spirit obedience.
God owns the people -the Church does not. The problem is that most churches do not know this.
posted by Bob Carder @ 12:34 PM
22 comments
22 Comments:
The obvious problem with your suggestion on how to "prove" it is that it would require me to lie to my pastor and my church board.
God's HS is not leading me to leave the church and start another with 20-30 Beulah members.
I'm uncomfortable lying to "prove" a hypothesis. That would be a sin.
If this happened I would be very disappointed... that it was only a test and they were not actually going to carry it out! Some who is actually a pastor, and doesn't simply have the title "pastor", would be very excited that brothers and sisters in Christ were following God in this way.
-Alan
COP OUT! I ONLY SAY COP OUT! How will you know if you don't push it?
Come on Mike. Do you want Truth or?
I know you do not!
Le's play the game or keep our heads in the sand. Come on Mike!
Why not carry it out - BIG BOY?
BIG BOY WILL NOT!
I will not be taunted into taking a questionable action.
This has happened to me in 2 different churches where I was given the pastors "blessing" to plant and then he worked behind my back to "take back" the people he was afraid would leave.
That being said, I find no humor in the suggested game and I find Bob Carder's comments immature and lacking anything of the Spirit of Christ.
I am not a fan of using deceit to prove a point. This tells me something is wrong and a movement has gone too far when the end justifies the means.
Michael Ehret, I applaud your integrity and demonstration of Christlike character.
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1. GOD Himself is not above tests. Any opposition to discovering whether or not the Holy Spirit has enough authority in your church to do something outside of the leadership's plans based on that is irrelevant.
2. We are eavesdropping on a conversation between two people obviously familiar with each other's lives; let's keep that in mind before we jump to conclusions regarding the maturity of either.
3. Bob is taking his cue from a true life event happening to a church RIGHT NOW in AMERICA. Maybe you are not aware of the leadership struggles and power plays outside of your own churches, but do NOT think that because your church is tight and efficient and ready for God whenever He shows up that every other church out there is! There are many men and women who God has been moving to begin new works and whose church leadership has discounted. IS THAT RIGHT? I believe that may be the real question here... is it right for men to overrule GOD?
4. If your churches are not in that boat; it would certainly serve the Kingdom better if you got involved with the churches that are and affirmed the Holy Spirit's direction, displayed godly leadership for them, and set a church free to work as God directs instead of sitting in your own glad that you aren't subjected to such problems. There are certainly enough broken churches out there that you could be making a difference in.
I wrote a beautifully cogent, response to this – and then my computer locked up when I tried to send it. This won’t be as eloquent, but I’ll try.
g.n. wrote: 1. GOD Himself is not above tests.
Mike writes: Deut. 6:16; Matthew 4:7; Luke 4:12
My heart cry is Ps. 139:23. I find much biblical support for God testing us, which is what I’m presuming you meant. I would never presume to test God with the admonitions against doing so.
g.n. wrote: 2. We are eavesdropping on a conversation between two people obviously familiar with each other's lives.
Mike writes: Yes, it is true Bob and I know each other well. He does not offend me with his posts. I love him. Even though he taunts me mercilessly. I would quote Monty Python’s “Search for the Holy Grail” here, but …
g.n. wrote: 3. Bob is taking his cue from a true life event happening to a church RIGHT NOW in AMERICA.
Mike writes: I guess that’s part of the problem. He simply says its happening, but gives no factual information to back that up. One cannot make an argument that something is a universal problem, without giving backup. It is not enough to simply say, “It is so.” I consider Bob very authoritative, but not omniscient.
g.n. wrote: 4. If your churches are not in that boat; it would certainly serve the Kingdom better if you got involved with the churches that are … . There are certainly enough broken churches out there that you could be making a difference in.
Mike writes: It is certainly true that there are broken churches out there. But whether my presence in them would be enough to help them heal is quite a leap of faith on your part. :) The bigger problem I have with this statement is that you seem to think you know what would serve the Kingdom better. God is not calling me to leave my church to help heal a broken church. My assumption is He knows what He’s doing. However, if He did so call, I’d be there.
Thanks all.
Nothing immature about this. Maybe since you cannot think for yourself you should try this.
Ask your Pastor if he would bless a block of people to leave his church in order to do something the Holy may be calling them too? Ask him to explain why he would or would not. Be careful not to miss all the statements regarding possible scenario's.
Few senior pastors in America are willing to give up a block of their sheep and tithes for the Kingdom because of their kingdom. Sorry Pastors!
Sorry Mike - you are in a church of ministry control! I know the church really really well, I used to pastor her. I walked out of a meeting after I suggested we plan a fundraiser breakfast for the soup kitchen downtown of course I had to ask for permission and I had the request tabled. This happened in my last few months of ministry there. I can even get more specific if you wish.
I guess I was taunting you, Mike. I sorry:)
TO ALL: The point isn't that you should ask your pastor in deception. It's a test that is never meant to be played. Can't you see for yourself that you have your answer. You don't have to play this no integrity scenario to know the truth. You already know the truth. The test is what has set the bar. You already know your pastor would not bless them to leave. Don't you?
By the way those who know that their pastor would bless people to leave are people who have seen their pastor bless people to leave. If it's going to be done -it's already been done. Get what I mean?
The test is just stating the game criteria and in stating it you already know the answer. It is a game that is never meant to be played. Are you serious here?
I would contend that our church's major problem is not leadership control (although I am not saying that's not an issue -- just that I've never experienced it), as much as it is an improper understanding of the relationship between money and the church, excuse me, Church.
My money is not my money, it's God's. I am His steward. The money I give to the church (God's money I'm stewarding) is not the church's money, it's Gods. Money hasn't change hands as much as the stewardship of that money has changed hands.
But I am getting off topic.
Great comments, Mike! I like it when you get off topic. I would still contend that you are caught in a powerful system of control.
What would happen if God wanted to show up in miraculous power this coming Sunday? Is there room for Him? You can answer that question from experience. Has there been room for Him to show up?
By the way major sin shows its ugly head with the use of money and power or control.
Bob,
First, when you suggest that I am not able to think for myself, why exactly is that? I have had the experience in your test in 2 churches, so how does that connect with your assertion I am unable to think? Can you please explain that statement to me.
Second, based on the clarification you made in your last post and the one you made on Alan Knox's website, let me ask you. Would you agree with me that it would be wrong for an individual to take your "test" literally and lie to their pastor?
Put another way, in your view, would it be a demonstration of immature Christian character to take your "test" literally and approach ones pastor with a hidden agenda?
Finally, if I get you right, all along what you meant to say in your post was that people should simply go and have a conversation with their pastor (no hidden agendas) and talk about how they would react in this hypothetical situation? Am I now reading you correctly?
Bobert, if God wanted to show up in any church service on Sunday, there would be nothing any of us could do to stop Him.
But God has shown up, many times, in Beulah's services of late. We just need to recognize Him and let Him change us ... rather than seeing that "charge" we get as a purely emotional, meant for us, experience.
God doesn't show up in church services, anywhere, to 'reward' His people with good feelings. He shows up to empower. But, oh sweet agony, we have to grasp the power. We have to choose. He has made it so.
Any assertion that you cannot think for yourself is found in the assertion that I am asking you to lie. NO I AM NOT asking you to lie. The test is found int he presented scenario. You already know the answer.
If you found my comments offensive, please forgive me. Really I was speaking up for you and your pain and the truth that Pastors are very poor at releasing the Holy Spirit and His money and people.
I'm more in agreement with you than not. Hope this clears things up.
Let's bring God on this Sunday, then.
Thanks for making those clarifications then Bob. Given your original intent, it owe you an apology. I should have asked a question first before I assumed you were suggesting this test was a real thing. No excuse, but based on my past experience with the 2 churches I mentioned, I may be overly sensitive to this topic.
Bob, as your brother, I would ask that you please forgive my presumptive and improper accusation?
No need for any such J.R. we are brothers in a cause worth dying for. Who are you anyway? bcarder@centurytel.net let's connect personally.
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