Let's focus on inviting...
I'll be brief. That's a miracle in and of itself.
The church in America has largely replaced inviting "people to Jesus" with inviting "them to church". There is a subtle shift that many may not see. After inviting them to church they feel their work is done. It becomes the job of the church machinery to reach them for Christ. And I do praise God that some are finding Jesus and that Jesus is blessing here. But I often wonder what it would be like if we had full obedience by everyone to the Great Commission of God. Instead of preachers encouraging their people to invite their friends to church instead he would encourage them to lead someone to Christ.
posted by Bob Carder @ 9:58 AM
10 comments
10 Comments:
Inviting people to Jesus and inviting them to church are the same thing for me. The church should look like Christ, and should be Christ to the world. The machinery is only part of the process. The inviter should walk with the invitee through the machinery. Their relationship should extend beyond the machinery as well. How is this against the Great Commission? Why are machinery, structures, discipleship classes, group Bible study, sermons, etc so bad? They are not. They lead people to Christ. They work. God is pleased.
Inviting people to church largely replaces the priority to invite people to Jesus. The inviting people to church isn't inviting people to Jesus. It's an excuse for not inviting people to Jesus.
Phil, when did you last invite someone to Jesus? When did you last invite someone to church. See my point here. They are not the same.
The church has lost her purpose and it is not invite people to church. Jesus never said, invite the lost to church. Did He?
But by inviting them to church, can that be like a pre-step for inviting them to Christ? When they get across the church's threshold, doesn't it usually follow that they will be directed to Christ?
So, by saying that I invited someone to Church, I am essentially inviting them to Jesus. It's like I am saying, hey you are my friend. Come to my house for dinner. In fact stay the night. Then I raise it up, hey you want to join my family. You are an orphan, let me show you a family that can love you and accept you as their own.
Is this a good parallel? I still am not seeing your reasoning on how inviting them to church is not the same as inviting to Jesus. Inviting them to the family is the exact same as inviting them to become a son of the Father. When you are in the family, you can be a son.
Just a question:
wouldnt it be more important to lead unbleivers to an encounter with the Holy Spirit? LOTS of people encountered Jesus in the New Testament, few of them were chosen by His Spirit. I mean, even satan will have "and encounter" with Jesus, only his will end in a lake of fire. We MUST lead them to the Holy Spirit. Are we doing THAT by inviting them to church?
I think that the Holy Spirit leads us to Christ. He can use a variety of methods to do this. Good point though Zach.
but heres my point, and i probably should have said this A LOT sooner. we are not questioning WHAT God can do. to do so would be laughable. WE KNOW that people are saved in the established church. I was saved in the established church. I never found the freedom from sin that i was promised there, but still. The vision we have been given is that God is starting something new (which is actually very old, so i guess that makes t kinda retro). I do not follow this vision because i was told to, or because we have dynamic speakers. because we dont. i am a part of this movement that GOD has started because HE CALLED ME to it, in that voice that only His sheep will recognize. A good deal of what Bob is saying, unless im misreading you bob, which could be the case, is that the new wine of this movement CANNOT be held in the old wineskin of the established church. People accuse bob of being disllusioned, well then listen to me. I was never burned by the church. i went there faithfully trying to prusue God and never truly found what i was seeking.i never found joy, which is what my generation is deprived of. God called me to this, and i left everything behind to follow. i had a few rebellious moments, and i suffered for those. But i have seen, witnessed and experienced everything that i had been told existed but never beleived. I finally witnessed the power of the Lord, not just His power over finances and situations, His holy, supernatural power!
Ultimately, my point. stop asking Bob to justify himself. ask God if Bob is credible, if what he's saying is true. and dont be afraid of the answer. If God tells you to come on board, great! just dont fight it. if He tells you to go back to your church, fine. If THAT'S what He's told you, THAT's where He wants you.
i only write this because i tire of arguments with no purpose, where no truth is revealed, and where the search for truth dissolves into character assault, as it has ON BOTH SIDES!
Phil, i thank you for being sincere and for presenting yourself genuinely, even if you did almost accuse us of heresy. the discussions ive had with you have been by far the most enjoyable. know that i bear no ill will to anyone who posts and that i pray blessings on you all.
Zach, that is a great comment! seriously. I was just angered by the amount of hate towards our camp (the established church) that Bob has been projecting. I now can see clearly that YOU are in this for the right reasons. I really admire your honesty here. I now see that you are definitely not heretics. But your methods of doing church are quite different from the way it's ever been done before. New things like this often frighten me for the many reasons that I have been discussing over the last several days. But I see that you, Zach, are a true follower of Christ and are a true missionary to our generation. You are not full of hate for my camp. You acknowledge that God is working in both places. Which I also have said from the beginning.
I apologize if I have caused anyone reading my posts to stumble. I truly only desire to shine the light of truth wherever I write. Zach, may God bless you as you strive to serve him in these unique places. May you always have a strong conviction for knowing his Truth. May you endeavor to proclaim the Gospel to the very ends of the earth.
Let's all strive to be more like Zach here. Though his camp may be different, there is no bitterness that he holds for the old structure. He respects and honors his forefathers of the faith. He has a genuine heart for missions. Let's all listen to the call of God in our lives. The true call. Not the stored up thoughts of years gone by. Not the regrets we hold because of failure. Christ is standing before us, declaring "I make all things new!" We must heed his call and forget the personal qualms that hold us back. We are in the same body. At least I hope. And I believe from Zach's remark here, we certainly are. Let us focus our hearts on Christ and go where he wants us to go.
and phil, one thing i want to clarify:
i have been walking alongside Bob for this past year (has it really been that long!?!?) and i have to say this. Bob doesnt hate you, or any of the other posters. He has been accused of hating the church and of reacting out of being burned. But i truth, he loves the church so much that to see what he sees; to see all the things that ail the church and to know that no one else sees it stirs anger in his heart. righteous anger. the type of anger that someone feels when their child has been harrassed at school or that their daughter has been used by her drug-addict boy friend. Its an intense anger, but its fueled by compassion, not hatred. True, he hates everything that he sees as destroying the church, and that hapens to be many of the things that you all hold dear, but he doesnt hate you. Apostolic/prophetic compassion is seldom gentle or soft.
i only say this because i dont want to be raised up on a pedestal as "the sane one" or "the nice one", when Bob has one of the biggest hearts i know, and he has personally carried the wounds of following Jesus all over his body and heart. Know that Bob's reasons for being here are just as pure as mine: that GOD brought him here. know that our perspectives are different, and that both of us have nothing but love for the Bride of Christ.
If you dont want to believe me, thats up to you. but i will stand as a witness for the work that God has wrought in Bob's life and through Bob's obedience to the call He has given him
Amen Zach - I stand with that witness.
I do also!
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