Phil C & Chris Knight & Senor Blackwood
You guys are making some interesting comments that have sidestepped some very important issues. Anony asked some great questions and you refuse to answer because herefuses to surface. I admit they were great questions. Now I'm asking the same questions. Are you ready now to answer:
Senor - Have you recently made a disciple who made another disciple. Tell us about this. How about your senior church leadership, has the senior pastor of your church made a disciple recently who also made a disciple? This is what we should be talking about, right?
Now I want to know your answers to these questions. This will reveal some interesting things. Not sure you will answer. Pretty sure you will not. I've been wrong before. Let's give up some praise for Jesus. Your answers will be praising Jesus, I hope.
How should reformation take place? How has it taken place in the past?
Face it -those opposing Bob on this blog are much more vile and insulting than Bob.
Phil - Quality of Disciples? What steps does your church take to evaluate the quality of their disciples? What steps do you take? Do you have any disciples? Please answer the questions and not sidestep.
Chris - great - you invite them to Jesus first - what do your church members do? Have you asked anyone when was last time they led someone to Jesus? I ask the question all the time. The answer is pathetic. How about you guys - When was the last time for you.
Chris - do you personally disciple someone who has made another disciple?
How about you Phil?
If the answer is no then perhaps you should put down our "structure guard" and ask Bob how he is doing that?
Phil - your church is healthy? Quite a claim. How did you decide that. I would like to seriously know how you made that evaluation. Your anomoly must be studied because every bit of research I have read shows the number of churched is declining in every county in America and those that are churched increasingly fail to correctly state basic fundamental doctrine. We should be following your model - if you can substantiate that claim.
WAKE UP - Christianity is dying in America, in the church and outside its walls. The society is becoming more hostile towards Christians - not because of people like Bob - but because they see the church differently than you guys defend it.
posted by Bob Carder @ 12:33 PM
64 comments
64 Comments:
This comment has been removed by the author.
(1) How should reformation take place? How has it taken place in the past?
ANSWER: I believe that reformation has in the past and will only take place in the future when the church returns to the following the truth's of scripture. We can do this by returning to true Biblically based sermons, with true Biblically based discipleship, and with a true measure of service. I agree that no one should get a pass to sit in the pew. I am just not going to give up on the church, I would like to stay and fight it out.
(2) Face it - those opposing Bob on this blog are much more vile and insulting than Bob.
ANSWER: That is your anonymous opinion. I choose to think it is the other way around. That is my honest answer. If you can't dish out hard comments and accept hard returns, get out of the debate.
(3)Chris - great - you invite them to Jesus first - what do your church members do? Have you asked anyone when was last time they led someone to Jesus? I ask the question all the time. The answer is pathetic. How about you guys - When was the last time for you.
ANSWER: I believe that some of our people are very faithful at this. I believe that many are not. Have I asked people in my church about leading people to Jesus. Absolutely. How about you guys - When was the last time for you guys. Answer: Last week.
(4) Chris - do you personally disciple someone who has made another disciple?
ANSWER: Absolutely! I believe in discipleship not just talk about it.
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I believe that I have fulfilled the requests of your post. I am sure that it is now time for you to pick through my responses. I long to hear from you where I am wrong. Is there any possibility that you may be able to respond in a positive way, giving me a slight bit of credit for my positions?
well the fact that the first comment has been deleted makes me nervous here...
First of all I am accountable only to Jesus Christ for my work, not Bob Carder or anyone else.
Second of all my senior pastor has not been a part of this and would prefer to be left out because once again he is accountable to one authority alone, and that is Jesus Christ.
thirdly, i think that it is a little innapropriate to make an entire post aimed at Phil, Chris and myself.
Also (i wasnt sure if there was a nice way to word fourth so i switched lol :) You have side stepped issues that Phil Chris and I brought up that are integral to answering the question that you originally posed. That is why those questions are there. Not because we are avoiding the issue but because we are trying to get to the heart of the matter.
No i have not MADE a single discple. Because I cannot MAKE a discple. That is the work of the Holy Spirit alone. (Perhaps I am quibbling over semantics here) I have directed many young people to live the life that the Lord is calling them to live and by the work of the Holy Spirit many of them have gone on to live lives that have made a huge impact for the kingdom which yes includes other people becoming disciples of Jesus Christ.
So have I made any disciples that look like me? act like me? eat, drink and talk like me? (10 points to the person that can quote that lol:) no i have not. I have by the guidance of the Holy Spirit have directed people to live lives that are honoring and glorifying to God. Yes it is easier to say "I have made disciples" but i find that phrase misleading and to be honest cultic.
Senor wrote:
No i have not MADE a single discple. Because I cannot MAKE a discple. That is the work of the Holy Spirit alone. (Perhaps I am quibbling over semantics here) I have directed many young people to live the life that the Lord is calling them to live and by the work of the Holy Spirit many of them have gone on to live lives that have made a huge impact for the kingdom which yes includes other people becoming disciples of Jesus Christ.
The Planter: Read Matthew 28. Jesus told us to make disciples and He would build His church.
And I might add, He does not build His Church with the unreached. You have to know Him to be in His family.
Chris, I love your harshness. Thanks for not apologizing for it.
Hey Chris can you give me the first name of your disciple line. How far does it go?
Can you be more specific at all.
Hey Chris can you give me the first name of your disciple line. How far does it go?
Can you be more specific at all.
I knew Senor would say no! I know the answer on your senior P he told me already and its NO!
Chris, I'll work on the credit thing. But I'll have to re-read all the posts.
Now have you visited the new post What is Church?
This is so much fun, let's keep it up.
Thank you :) Bob i hoped you would bring that verse into play.
Yes "therefore, go and make disciples of the nations. baptizing them in the name of the father, the son, and the holy spirit." that was from memory I hope i got it all correct.
So these disciples you have made... whose disciples are they? Because if i read your blog correctly... they are Bob's disciples. But according to Matthew 28:19 they are to be disciples of the holy trinity... That is my qualm here bob. You say that we refer to things like church and mean the location. That our semantics are off. That we should be more clear of speech but bob... you refer to the people that you have discipled as your disciples... that seems a little off to me... and not just off but speaking of spiritual gifts mine is discernment and it sets off all sorts of alarms in my head when we refer to Disciples of Jesus Chrst as our disciples.
And bob really i want to urge you to be careful in that and your work as a whole... because all major cults have been built upon the backs of the disillusioned... to whom you make your call... I am not attacking you Bob... I truly and sincerly apologize if it comes across that way. BUT we must becareful
and Bob why did you even bring up the unreached? I am confused about that was I unclear in something that I stated?
Chris asked:My Question to you: Can a segment of this group (Church) come together regularly for fellowship, discipleship, encouragement, care AND be evangelistic at the same time?
The Planter: In the world where unsaved people live, work and play.
If you think unsaved people can worship you missed something. They can look like they worship.
Chris, I would challenge the thought that the only time people in Acts came to the saving knowledge of Christ was through a one-to-one disciple making mission. I believe that there were times that group evangelism (Attractional) happened as well. When Jesus, Paul, Peter were preaching, there were believers and non-believers together in a group.
The Planter: They were not in the Church body-the Church Body reached them. There is a difference.
Other answers:
I do not treat the CHURCH c(capitol) Body of Christ with anger - I love the CHURCH. What I speak against are the practices of the church -the location which confuses church and CHURCH! I don't have them confused, I know who the CHURCH is and she is the Body of Christ NOT the Body of Christ with unsaved sprinkled among her.
I love the Body of Christ the CHURCH! It's the other stuff that hinders the CHURCH from being the CHURCH.
CHURCH is not an organization, building, location of any kind. It's simply a group of people who follow Christ as His disciples. They gather and they scatter for His sake and His redemptive plan.
Chris, are all who attend your church a part of the CHURCH? Your definition of the CHURCH is cloudy because of your definition of church. Can they belong to church and not belong to CHURCH? Now you see where I'm going, don''t you.
I think that answers everything.
Now for extra credit: Your answer on What is Church was textbook for sure. Even good. Maybe Great!
Now don't tell me you are concerned about me when you have made not attempts to show concern.
Senor - They are not Bob's disciples they are in Bob's discipling line and you know they are Disciples of Jesus. You are being belligerent.
I can't believe I'm in your district. I thought we were both about reaching lost people and making Christ disciples out of them.
i'll try not to comment too much, as this post is between the 4 of you, as the title suggests, but here i go:
Senor, at this point, i have to ask you your definition of the discipling relationship? I am in Bob's disciplship line, which makes me Bob's disciple's disciple's disciple's disciple's disciple. But i dont belong to Bob in any way, nor anyone else on the list. I am the Lord's and He is mine. I belong to no other. But as i grow and walk in faith, i come across things i had never encountered before (i.e. new discernement in the Spirit, discernment of demonic activity, demonic resistance to prayer and spiritual attacks like i had never witnessed before.) My discipler provides wisdom and experience as i need it. I am not modeling myself to be my discipler; that's ridicoulous! He and i are two different people with different gifts and different annointings. were not going to be the same. But he guides me where he can and challenges me where i need it. and i have allocated to him the right and authority to speak truth into my life. In other words, i have relinquished my right to argue and defend myself against the truth with him, (as humans are so prone to do).
But once again you are making it something that has your name in front of it. it says THIS IS WHAT BOB HAS DONE. not this is what JESUS has done.
The point I am making is not that different from your own. you say you hate the church - the location. its semantics.
and bob once again you keep bringing lost people into this... have I even discussed that yet?
when did he say "This is what I have done?"?!?! NEVER! thats when! He has never taken credit for ANYTHING that the Lord has done in my life or in any of the disciples between us in the line. Youre making an accusation that there is no basis for, unless its in the words chosen, and thats just a wee bit silly
Zach i apologize you're comment was published as i was finishing mine. It was not aimed or directed at you in any way. But you and bob both refer to it as Bob's discipling line. My question is why does it matter whose line they are in? if they are disciples of Christ? Because Zach as you said you're discpler wasn't even Bob it was someone whom bob discipled so why can't it be their line? or really why does it have to be anyones line? Why is credit being given to where it honestly isnt due? Because let's be honest Bob wouldnt have led anyone to Christ if the Holy Spirit hadnt done a work in his life and the person that he shared with's life.
Again!!! It's not the numbers!!! Does God really keep count of the number of people you disciple? Where is the Scriptural basis for that? Didn't think so. In Matt 28 Christ does not hand the apostles a quota they had to fulfill. We don't get an extra gold star for reaching one more person than the next guy. Your focus is flawed.
What I meant by quality is this: Perhaps you only disciple one person in your whole life. Are you a failure at the Great Commission because you only got one? No. Now if that guy was a weak Christian and he just clung to milk all the time and never advanced to solid food spiritually, part of that might be on you. But if that one person really changed, really became a solid Christian in the Church...that is what I mean by quality. The numbers don't matter. You could train a thousand mediocre Christians and it still would not amount to the one strong Christian you walked with and helped to mature.
In regards to my personally discipling of another person: I recognize that the ultimate authority of discipleship belongs to Christ. If I remember correctly, Christ says that all authority has been given to him...and THAT is the cause and source of our discipling. If we read Matt 28 as a whole and in context, rather than chopping out a verse that wasn't even divided out in the original Greek, you will find that. I do point a number of people to Christ. I walk with some guys on my dorm floor in the Christian faith. I also have conversations about the faith with a girl I know. She has been a Christian for only a year now, saved from a life of drugs and whatnot. I did not lead her in salvation, but I am the harvester who is reaping the fruit of the seed that someone else planted. And it is great! So yes, Christ is using me to disciple some of his children. Hope that answers that question.
And finally, (you asked a lot from me, and I am tired, but I will answer), Finally, yes my church is healthy. I can make this claim based on the New Testament model of church. My church fellowships with one another, we eat together, we share our possessions with one another, we reach out and help others (outside the body) through food pantries and a clothing closet. We have a heart for local missions in this. We also have a heart for world missions in our support and prayers for full time missionaries. We also send out missionaries to the far parts of the world (such as me and my mission to Spain). We learn from one another and help each other grow in the faith. This is done in Sunday school, youth group, young adults group, older adult group, home Bible studies, weekly sermons, parking lot conversations. We see new people coming in and staying. They are invited as friends and quickly become family. Though numbers do not matter, you seem to like them. We are growing numerically and we are discipling and baptizing these newcomers. We do not falter on doctrine as you suggest. Here we are very strong. We have a gifted pastor who studies extensively and researches more than anyone I know. The same is of our Christian Education teachers who lead classes. They prepare and are trained in the doctrines of the faith. We ascribe to the Free Methodist doctrines. We do not falter anywhere in handling the Word of Truth. What more do you want from me? we are healthy.
Sorry that was so long, but you asked a lot from me. I hope you are now satisfied. Now go at it and pick me apart. I can handle you. You have nothing on me here.
PS. I like this pick on the three guys who stand in the right with the backing of more scholars, theologians, pastors, evangelists, martyrs, saints, and general Christians from all across history than you can ever dream of having on your side. We have the credibility here. The onus is on you to provide the evidence for your convictions. Where is your burden of proof?
We have Scripture on our side as our model for church and discipleship. In NO WAY does Scripture set up the church as it is today, with a professional clergy, passive congregation, sinners prayers, rejection of some gifts, quelching of many gifts. It's just not in Scripture. That's why I left Bible College. The way they teach ministry is a joke.
You should study history and see how many of our traditions came about. Interestingly, it wasn't from Scripture.
Chad, really? You have only the church exactly like in the NT?
Did you read Bob's earlier post asking for internships and an invitation to a conference?
I don't recall either one being a part of the NT church.
Chad i really want to challenge you here... please read your post before you put them up because you come across in a very angry and arrogant manner... and i realize that many of my posts may come across that way as well and i do apologize that is not my intentions, but i believe that all of our intentions here (Bob included) is to discuss this in a calm and rational manner there is no need for anger.
Chad further more I ask you to provide us with the scripture to back up what you are saying. You say you have scriptural support yet i have not seen any from anyone BUT Phil, Chris and myself. We must rely solely upon the word for if we lose the word we lose everything. Scripture CANNOT be taken advantage of, we must use in its original context and meaning. so please do not simply boast of having the word on your side back it up please. I am asking for books and chapters and verses. Please be specific because in all i do i strive to be like the bereans reading and testing the scriptures to see if what is said is true. So provide me with your verses that I may test them for truth.
Bob,
Over the last few days I have attempted stand and defend the potential that I believe the established church still has today. It is obvious to all who read this that you and I see things from very different perspectives. You have no desire to have a logical / balanced discussion regarding differing views. I acknowledge that you are in a tough position. You have a line of disciples that follow your blog, so for you to admit or acknowledge anything that we have to say would look to your followers as you caving in on your mission. They are looking for Uncle Bob to flex his muscles and you are getting a kick out of it.
You often refer to how this discussion is great and lets keep it up. But you fail to respond with answers, just more questions and ramblings about just answering questions that all on this side have already answered.
So I will check out of this blog and wish you the best in making disciples. I very truly mean that. No sarcasm included. I believe that heaven will be populated by people who find Christ inside and outside the physical doors of a church. So with that I am returning my focus to my church and our focus on making fully committed disciples.
Chris
Bob asked, "how many are in your discipleship line?"
Never heard that question in Scripture, except from a few folks who tried to follow after men... but I do remeber being asked that quesiton when I tried o sell Amway "how many people are in your downline?"
Because of course we all know that success is determined by how bug your downline is.... that is totally biblical!
At this point I am going to have to agree with Chris, there is no point in having a discussion with someone who refuses to answer opposing questions. I have yet to see any TRUTH posted in any of these comments by Bob or any of his disciples. You have only once used the word to defend your arguments. and that was of course your standard Matt 28. because appearently that is the only weapon in your arsenal.
To bob's disciples, do not merely take what one man says as complete truth... search the scriptures for your self... many men died to give you the scriptures in a language you can read and understand, do not let their sacrifice be in vain. To those that call themselves Bob's disciples I think you really should ask yourself why Bob is avoiding hard questions and instead of backing them with truth simply lashing out and attacking those that pose them. and i said it before and i am sure that i will say it again... Most cults were formed on the backs of the disillusioned...
Chris Knight-
I am NOT looking for my "uncle Bob" to flex his arms. Far from it! I come because i like discussing things with people, and Bob is NOT the kind to get off showing off. You say that he has no interest in a logical discussion. and thats true. Bob and i are interested in spiritual discussion, by which their very nature is illogical by worldly standards. Truth is poorly attained, if it can be at all, through logic. You accuse him of being unbalanced, and to an extent there is truth. Bob doesnt see EVERY perspective, he was only given a few. He is prophetic and apsotolic. He makes challenges, draws lines, asks people for answers to questions and will not budge until the answer is given. (and its not that you haavent provided an answer, its that youre answering the wrong question).
i am pastoral, mercy, and teacher in my perspective. I have a deep care for the individual(their health, walk, and emotions), and i abhor false teaching. Of course Bob is unbalanced, we all are on our own. nobody was given all gifts, sace Jesus, and He gives us gifts for balance. Your accusations against his tone are simply accusing him for speaking the way he was made to speak. I do not claim that he's faultless. far from it (save by the blood of Jesus!); in fact, sometimes his tone puts ME off, but i know him, and i have seen the Spirit working in him. and i can boldly proclaim that the accusations of arrogance and anger are NOT Bob.
one more thought:
I DO NOT FOLLOW BOB BLINDLY! in fact, i dont follow Bob, i follow the HOly Spirit alone. he and i only really see each other once a month, anyway.
I do not beleive what i believe because someone told me to. I was skeptic at first, but as i pursued the Lord, i have seen the Spirit move in ways it NEVER did in the established church. You want to see examples of Scripture? we are living the Scriptures! We are seeing miraculous healing after the laying on of hands, people being set free from demons, demons manifesting in opposition to the work of the Lord. Old men dream dreams, young men have visions, people prohepcy, speak in tounges, proclaim God's glory with every ounce of their being, burning on the altar before the Lord.
So tell me, which church is more in line with Scripture? the one that speaks it, or the one that lives it?
Zach, so Bob is an apostle and does not need to demonstrate mercy in his speech? Where in Scripture are a person's Giftings from the Spirit used to justify imbalance or bad character?
Wow, you have seen signs and wonders and that proves your faith is real?
The early Mormons spoke in tongues and had many healing miracles and that was also their claim that they were the one true "movement" of God.
Charles Parham spoke in tongues and saw healing miracles, but Bob says he is from Satan. Why are his miracles not proof like your miracles?
History is strewn with the bodies of those "slain in the spirit:" "barking for Jesus" "drunk in the Spirit" "prophets offering great dreams"
Yet you and Bob are the true Divine downline of the Spirit and the rest of the pathetic church is wallowing in 95% error.
Wow!
Bob as a member of the midwest district I would like to send you warning... There are things in motion that do not bode well for you and your movement.
Most if not all of your support comes from churches or people IN churches and you have bitten the hand that feeds you. I know personally of people that support you that have read your blog and the comments on it, over the last couple of days and I would like to excercise a word of caution to you. There have been MANY valid questions have been brought up that you have avoided. Furthermore neither you or anyone that you have discipled have used scripture to defend any of your statements. Instead of answering senor, phil, chris, and several others comments you lash out at them and attack them. Bob, this concerns me. I have choosen to remain anonymous because i have said more than i should have. I hope you can respect a peer trying to lend you a hand though.
Again- WOW.
This is pointless.
Thank you.
Like Chris, I've bailed out of this conversation also. In spite of the accusations that we're not responding to Bob's points and questions, it appears to me to be the opposite. I'll assume that we're just reading past each other, but either way, communication has broken down and isn't achieving it's purpose.
As leaders we *do* need to repent of not being fully engaged in the process of making disciples. For too long we have judged our success by how many people have filled the pews on Sunday morning. We need to reengage with God in the Great Commission, seek to ground people in his word, and walk by the Spirit. We meet together to worship, to learn, to pray, and to fellowship. We gather in buildings and outside of buildings. We excercise our spiritual gifts in a variety of contexts as the Spirit and context deem appropriate. We acknowledge some as our leaders though all are to minister.
In the multiple times I've been involved in Keystone as a coach, I have *not* encountered the kind of discussion or spirit that I've encountered here, and I hope that these conversations will not turn people against what God among us and through us. Granted, blogs are two dimensional communities, so hopefully there is more to the story than what we're witnessing here.
Most of those who go through Keystone are pastors and leaders in conventional churches and ministries, and God is using them both in their churches and outside of them to make disciples.
Blessings to you all.
Rick
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For the record, I'm not one of Bob's disciples. I met him in Kansas, but I live in Texas.
The word 'cult' is being thrown around an awful lot in these conversations. That's disconcerting. Certainly you're better than that, right?
If I come across as arrogant and angry, not sure I can help that. Tone doesn't relate well when it's typed. Most of you come across the same way. Especially when you use the word cult.
The question isn't is God using people in conventional churches. The real question is 'what is best'? What's the best model for the Bride to operate in? We obviously have our extreme differences of opinion. I guess we'll leave it there. I don't see the conventional/traditional way being effective at all.
"Chad, really? You have only the church exactly like in the NT?"
Can you please quote me where I said that?
Sorry for 3 posts in a row, it's late and my internet skills are dumbed down.
As far as Scripture to back us up, I come with 1 Cor 14:26. I know this usually turns into an exegetical war about where the question mark is, but I think the best interpretation of it is that when the body comes together, they bring something. A word, a song, an exhortation, etc. Paul had to correct them in his letter about order because people were bringing so much to the meetings that it was becoming chaotic.
Church shouldn't be a place where one man speaks week after week and the body sits in the chairs and just takes notes. People should be able to contribute (orderly) during the gathering for the edification of the Body.
Yes, you're right. Upon examining my posts, I was angry. It was more of a product of my job problems than this conversation. [b]I apologize[/b].
First, JR, we can do without sarcasm. Let's try to build one another up here by compassionately instructing and helping each other to grow. This ought to be a learning experience. I hope that I have been faithful in communicating my arguments in a compassionate, concerned manner for my brothers in the Body.
Like Chris and Senor, I too have to bow out here. These discussions are really going nowhere. I have presented what I could with regards to the dangers of ignoring tradition. I have given it all I've got to present a viable argument for going back to Scripture in context. I have worked at showing that we are to use reason in our faith. This Christianity thing is logical, it is reasonable. We can look at Aquinas, Anselm, and others to see that. And I have talked about experience in the Christian faith. Though it is an important element, it is not THE most important. It should only be looked to after the other three. And of course the Holy Spirit works in and uses all four elements to give us a correct understanding of this Christianity thing.
We disagree. yes. We agree. sometimes. I answer the questions that have been asked. Then I ask related questions that go unanswered. I am getting nowhere with you guys. Or so it seems. Perhaps I have, with the help of the Holy Spirit, tickled your heart strings. But I will stand on the side of Truth. And it is my prayer that we will all be on that side. And that each and every one of us will learn to correctly handle that Truth. God be with you all.
I'll stick around, but will comment with less frequency. If I see something worth pursuing I will pick it up. If not, you will not hear from me. If there is a place where I can encourage, you can bet I will be there. Praying for you all.
In Christ,
Phil
To all the disciples who read this blog,
I, like Senor, want to address you. It is my prayer that you will not be turned away from God because of this. If anything, I hope that it will only increase and strengthen your walk with Christ. Some of these discussions, paradoxically it would seem, are the healthiest moments for the Church. This is how we learn from each other and grow together. Accountability is a very important thing in the life of a believer. Paul talks about this extensively in his writings. So, do not be turned off by us or enraged by what we say, but learn from us as we learn from you. Hold each other accountable to the Word of Christ. Correctly handle the Word of Truth. It takes patience. It takes courage. It takes the power of the Holy Spirit actively working in your lives. You will find that this will be difficult. But the rewards for staying faithful to God's will for your life are out of this world!!
So take heart. Be of good cheer. For we are all on the same team. We are all striving for the same goal. We all want to gain that crown only to throw it back at the feet of Jesus!
We are in a race. This race, however, is not a 100 meter dash. It is not even a 1600 meter distance run. Nor is it a 5K marathon. This is the longest and most intense race you will ever be called to run. Will you run? Will you finish? Though you grow tired, though you hit some bumps in the road, though you feel like you are going to vomit all over the person in front of you!...know this: that Christ is running with you. He will get you to that finish line if you let him. For his strength is made perfect in weakness. He will see us through. Will you join him? Will you keep running with us? Don't drop out now. It's far to early. Hang in there and I will see you at the end! Blessing on each of you as you strive to serve Christ, our Lord!
Now, (in the words of our Division of Religion and Philosophy chairman would say) "GO WITH GOD."
Sincerely in Christ,
Phil
Hey Bob, still no answer from you on the Biblical nature of your "downline"... why are you afraid to answer?
Why do you have downllines?
I see that in the business world of Multi-level-marketing schemes, but not in the Scripture?
I see that among some early disciples who tried to be of Aplos or Paul, but that was rejected by the Apostles?
I see the downline concept in the Roman Catholic church who talk about Apostolic succession, but not in the Scriputre.
So tell me, since you reject the unbiblical churches who give you financial support and exchange their 95% "corrupt" and "unbiblical: practices, where is the Biblical root for your practice?
Why do you call yourself a "movement"? Where is that word in the NT?
Why do you have conferences and downlines of disciples who go to your conferences for training? Where is that in the Scripture?
Why do you have a 501c3 status to accept tax deductable donations? do you not trust the Lord to provide unless you have a government recognized status where people can get a tax break for giving to you?
Come on Bob, please answer these questions. How do you dare stand in judgement of all churches who are not following you practices when you invent your own unbiblical practices and call the ":Spirit"?
To all that has been in this debate:
It would be interesting in knowing how many souls could have been changed with all this nonsense. If this had all been put up in prayer, my oh my what GOD could have done. I suggest everyone get on your prayer bones and quit arguing. To many souls have gone unprayed for.
Anon - Please don't threaten action from the Midwest District - I am a board member. If anyone has an official problem they should contact me. The truth is that no matter what the Midwest District does, it does not "Bode" anything for us. If God is not with us we will perish and if God is at work here, those opposing should be warned.
As for the money - if anyone quits giving because they are offended then so be it. God has provided for my family and for Bob's for many years before I became affilliated with them. I appreciate any support from those that see God at work with us but I will not change one thing or ask Bob to change for money. I do appreciate all those who have given to our work and continue to support us. There are many supporting our work that agree with Bob.
JR - I like the "downline" axe but the truth is there is much scripture to establish how we make disciples. I will give you one and you can find the rest. 2 Timothy 2:2 shows the generational nature of our ministry. Very simple - don't over complicate it.
PS. Read the story of Amway and see where they got the idea of MLM.
As for the 501(c)3 it comes automatically when you become a Missionary Church. We operate under theirs. It is a part of being in the structure. A 501(c)3 is not required of churches in America. Many do it in a spirit of cooperation with the government.
As for the use of terms not found in the Bible.... Do you use anything other than Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic? Every english word you use is not found in the Bible. Receptor language issues it appears.
I also find it very interesting that people that find Bob offensive return to this Blog and argue with him.????? Avoiding the offense is completely in your control - don't come here.
I am even more amazed that I have heard of pastors hundreds or thousands of miles away from St. Louis that are worried about what is written on this blog. Seriously - is there really this much insecurity in ministry leadership? To think that one man's opinions could bring this much opposition from established leadership. What a problem we have.
One last thing leaders - get used to it - there are more of them every day and the younger ones are more passionate than Bob. What will you do when the fringe is the norm? What will you do when they are in your congregation. It is an exciting time to be alive!! Go God!!!
From Rick – coming out of self-imposed exile to respond to Terry. :-)
Terry wrote: I am even more amazed that I have heard of pastors hundreds or thousands of miles away from St. Louis that are worried about what is written on this blog. Seriously - is there really this much insecurity in ministry leadership? To think that one man's opinions could bring this much opposition from established leadership. What a problem we have.
Rick (H2B): As far as I can tell I’m the only one posting here who fits this (I live on the other side of the earth), so I thought I should respond. If you’re referring to someone else, then I apologize for this. First of all, I would caution against claiming to know someone’s heart. To say that I (or whoever you’re referring to) am insecure based upon blog posts leaves a lot of room for error. I think that’s one of the problems some have with this blog is that it appears to judge the motivations and affections of people’s hearts. When we respond to a point with scripture, reason, or historical evidence the response is often an emotive attack on our motivations.
Second, though I’m geographically far away, I’m part of the Keystone movement. So I’m intimately related to what is going on here and the discussions involved.
Third, I’m ordained in the Missionary Church as you and Bob are – just one more reason why I’m not writing as an outsider.
Fourth, one of the principles of Keystone is that it is global, so I would think that global input would be welcome. In fact, Bob has written on this blog that America is in need of missionaries from other countries. Yet as someone ministering in another country, I’ve been told that I don’t understand the American context or should just stay in my neck of the woods when I suggest another way of looking at a situation. That’s simply a ‘conversation ending’ tactic.
Fifth, if this is meant to be just a local conversation among all of you, then I apologize again for contributing. It might be wise to say who the conversation is for and who is invited to participate.
Sixth, we live in a glocal environment. Internet and other means of communication have made business, politics, culture, and even ministry global endeavors. These are the times in which we live. We are a dispersed community, but we’re still a community.
I think most of us who’ve disagreed with some of Bob’s ideas want to discuss these things scripturally, reasonably, and in a spirit of humility and Christian love. Speaking for myself, the more time I spend in ministry the more I’m aware that I have much to learn from others. This blog doesn’t appear to be a learning community, however, which is why I’ve chosen to move on.
My hope and prayer is that someday we can have the humility to learn from one another and the faith to recognize that God is bigger than our particular box. I hope and pray that we can truly trust that Christ is responsible for building his Church, and we are free to put our energy and resources into helping others become followers of him.
We live in exciting times for the Kingdom. Let’s not waste our energy shooting one another down, but rather let’s spur one another on to love and good deeds.
Believing God for our progress and joy in the faith …
Rick
Rick - I was not talking about you. I am an up front guy and I would have pointed you out by name. Same goes for anyone else posting by name here - so its not you either.
I reference two instances from here in the states. Both have been posted about on this blog, which in my mind makes them fair game. Neither of them named the individuals and those individuals have not posted here by name - so I did not name them.
In the above-mentioned posts the two leaders went straight to the top of the MC leadership with their "issue" and not to Bob. That is how I have first hand knowledge of the instances - the MC Leadership involved me at that point.
One claimed this blog was harming his church and the other said they could not be a part of a denomination that had even one person in it that could write such things.
I do not see this blog as a "learning community" either. I see it as a prophetic voice crying for reform.
Historical perspective on prophetic voice - (warning - the following is satirical analogy - it contains nuggets of truth wrapped in humor. Any similarities to actual people or events is your imagination at work)
How does the prophet do what God calls him to do?
Prophet is called by God and enters the scene (may be from within the leadership or outside - always ends up opposed by leaders) and begins to point out the flaws and corruption (insert modern example here) of the existing church (those in covenant relationship with God – see I define). Prophet is initially ignored until he attracts a following (insert required size of following to cause alarm to current leaders - varies by situation).
Prophet's message causes great conflict (resulting in weeping, gnashing of teeth, and ripping of clothes or hostile blog rebukes). Offended people resort to other tactics (name calling, labeling as cult, personal attacks, cries of concern for him, or trying to refocus criticism on the prophet and his following) usually to no avail. Prophet's voice gets louder and following grows.
The offended turn to leadership at the highest levels which scratch heads at what to do and attempt to assess the prophet's (influence, following size, usually anything but validity of message) and try to determine how to handle him (this is code for shut him up).
(At this point many things have been tried - murder - excommunication - slander - traps - etc... with only one being beneficial to those offended - repentance.)
In the end the prophet’s voice precedes the judgement of God on His people which is usually worst than the prophet’s message and by the time this is accepted, its too late.
Repeat as needed until Christ returns.
Moral of the story – either Bob is a lunatic or a prophet – time will tell. I know him well, he’s like a brother to me, so I have made my decision on this. If Bob is a prophet then one thing is for sure – judgement is coming! If Bob is a lunatic then you are all wasting our time having discussions with a lunatic. You decide.
Thanks, Terry, for the clarification.
Re-entering exile ... :-)
Rick
Rick Don't leave. We sit on the edge of a revolution. The edge is the worst place to be. It creates conflict because what "was" still works a bit and what "is going to be" is still undefined and unrefined and seems unconfortable. Bob is on one side and some of the others are on the other. You (rick) often come to this conversation with a balance and yet you keep stepping closer to Bob's side. I don't post much because I am a listener. This blog is exactly what we need, however those of us responding to Bob need to be "discussing these things spiritually, reasonably and in a spirit of humiltiy and Christian love". All we have to do is start applying the "one anothers" to our responses and this blog can be very helpful to us.
To all the other bloggers: May I suggest a new perspective based on the 40+ comments of this entry. This is Bob's blog. His is the iniatiator (or instigator) He is either a prophet or a lunatic (according to terry) So if we respond to bob's edgy challenges in humility and love and discuss with each other as Rick suggests "in a spirit of humility and Christian love" our discussions can turn offensive and offending to a true discussion of how keystone can work in our particular areas and rather a little bit of disciple making is enough or do we have to turn the whole thing upside down?? Listen guys I desperately need this conversation. I am neck deep in this keystone stuff--I need questions answered about what do I do when I have more people who need to be discipled than I have mature believers? Please don't bail and please stop spending so much blog time on defense. Bob brings us to the possiblity of great discussion--he is edgy enough to make us think.
This is really interesting. Of course I'm smiling.
No one forces anyone to read this blog.
I am not defending what we have done to the Church of Jesus Christ in America. I grieve at what we have done to the pure Bride.
That's the point of several recent posts. We have changed the mission of the Church of Jesus by the way we define Church.
I knew I would rile a few up. But wow I didn't realize how much. I'm glad.
You didn't kill me, at least.
It's gonna get more radical.
Wow, I just got to reading some of this. Anonymous sounds scared. Bob has said before that he is going to do what God tells him to do regardless of money, so Anonymous, why don't you get behind us Satan. I highly doubt Bob cares if something "bodes well for him" if God is telling him to do it.
Eric Wilson
""""Did you read Bob's earlier post asking for internships and an invitation to a conference? """""
I believe, JR, that is not being done by any church, but rather a nonprofit organization called Sun Ministries. Please direct all complaints not to to any church, but to that organization. I would be happy to discuss the programs that the nonprofit is initiating. Programs to help the homeless, help the widows overseas, and to collaborate with other churches to help orphans. Do you have a problem with nonprofits which are not churches at all (nor do they claim to be)?
Eric Wilson
more radical? can't wait!
martilou, you wrote, "This is Bob's blog. His is the iniatiator (or instigator) He is either a prophet or a lunatic (according to terry) So if we respond to bob's edgy challenges in humility and love and discuss with each other as Rick suggests "in a spirit of humility and Christian love" "
I see, so for you it is okay that Bob makes his point using sarcasm, anger, and harsh accusation, but the only response should be humility and love. I would suggest that these should be the opening posts, not just the responses.
Obviously Bob is afraid to answer my questions. He just makes weak posts about "I am still smiling". Of course you are afraid to answer Bob, because you know you do not live up to the same standard you use to judge others and you don't want to be exposed in front of your followers. I could be wrong, but that is how I perceive it.
So I have a confession to make.
I made an effort to respond to Bob's points with the same kind of irrational banter. Here is the truth.
When the premise of your argument is, "we are more radically NT than everyone else" there will always be someone who is willing to be more radical.
Some read the communal life of Acts 2 and sell their homes, move into compounds, and live "just like the NT church"
Some read Paul's admonitions that women should not speak, and like the holiness movements they women wear not makeup, only dresses, and keep their heads covered in submission.
The standard, for me, is not to live like the church in the NT, but to live in faithfulness to the Gospel for today.
I think that is Bob's heart (at least I hope that is his heart), but let me tell you a secret folks. Being "prophetic" is not an excuse to be judgmental or ill-tempered. You don;t justify sin as "Spirit power"
If you have the gift of prophecy, but do not have love, you have nothing.
If you have a "better" way that could make the church stronger, but you have not love, then you are wrong.
The church needs reformation, but the church is not the enemy.
The grace of Jesus Christ covers not only our sin, but also our failed traditions. Thank God for the Grace of Jesus Christ which brings true reformation rather than the condemnation you offer on this site which only brings guilt and strife.
The lost need salvation, but the lost are not the enemy.
Our enemy is Satan and, at times, our own sinful flesh that work counter to the Gospel.
Bob, you have made the church in America your enemy and you are wrong for doing that.
Bob, I wrote this post entitled "Friend or Foe?" and your blog was my motivation. I did not mention you or your blog in my post because I felt no need to drag your name in the mud or disparage you behind your back. But here, on your blog, I want you to know that while we agree on the need for Holy Spirit Power. We agree on the need for some radical change in the church, I do not agree with your methods of using sarcasm, radicalism, or ridicule as motivator for change. That is not the Spirit of Grace under the New Covenant!
You treat your brothers and sisters in Christ as wicked and that is wrong Bob.
You justify your condemnation and hide your anger behind the veil of being a "prophet" and that is wrong. My Gifting of the Spirit is "Discerning of Spirit" and let me say that I find not the Spirit of Christ in your approach. Reject me, ridicule me, or dismiss me as "unspiritual", but that is my assessment brother.
Gifts from the Holy Spirit are not justification for speaking from the flesh and for not demonstrating the love of Christ in your words.
Again, I did choose to play some of that game here in my fist post. I did use some sarcasm. Maybe I am wrong for doing it (the Lord will be my judge). The end does not justify the means, but I did hope to illustrate to you directly and to your disciples that your approach will not help the body. A battle of "I can be more radically faithful than you." will not grow the church. Church history proves that this will only end in denominationalism and division (heresy). Not theological heresy, but heresy of dividing the Body of Jesus Christ.
Bob, we all do things that are not in the NT.
I have no problem with you using "downlines" or doing "conference". It is not wrong to use 501c3 to do your ministry. My only hope in pointing out your own preference to depart from the NT is to illustrate your hypocrisy. Yes hypocrisy. You judge the "church: as wrong for doing things not in the NT, yet you excuse your own extra-biblical practices. Jesus condemned the Pharisees for this kind of stuff when they put burdens upon the people that they themselves could not fulfill. That is legalism that is counter to the grace of Jesus Christ.
Bob, I embrace you as a brother and if my methods on this post, up unto this one, have been wrong, I will have to trust God for that conviction and forgiveness.
Bob, I believe you are rightly seeing many of the flaws in the institutional church. I think your approach on Generational Discipleship is a much neglected element of church today. But as a brother in Christ who agrees with much of your concern, I ask you to reconsider your methods and pray about your approach.
The assumption here is "us" vs. "them":. Everyone assumes that if I, or another poster, doesn't agree with you that they are less spiritual or have sold-out and compromised their faith. Can you not see the error of what seed you are sowing? I pray you can before it goes too far my brother.
Yes, we must have reform, but Bob, you are not bringing reform. You are building a ministry of disciples based who have been hurt and who are angry and that will not come to a good end.
Just like I did with TBN years ago, I am going to bow out of this site because I fear no good will come from my direct participation.
Bob, you can "keep smilin" like the Cheesier Cat, but your unwillingness to make direct address to my questions affirms, to me, you are not willing to engage in meaningful discussion.
When you are ready for some real conversation about healthy reform that does not vilify our brothers and sisters in Christ, Bob or anyone else, come visit my site or send me a private email.
For now, I am unsubscribing from the list and will not get any responses... I am praying.
""""Yes, we must have reform, but Bob, you are not bringing reform. You are building a ministry of disciples based who have been hurt and who are angry and that will not come to a good end.""""""
Have you met any of us JR? How dare you judge all of those disciples!!!! Your premise is not true. A number of disciples in this movement were either 1. Not hurt by the church because they rarely went, or 2. Not hurt by the church because they were not Christians and never went. No one is carrying around some hatred for the church like you want to believe. Many, however, after seeing what Christ can do, desperately want to show others what they have seen so they can experience the freedom in Christ they have experienced. How many people in your "church" are really truly free? You are going to say you can't judge that, and that is partially true, you can't know if someone is free, you can know if they are in bondage however. You can see in peoples lives when they are living in sin they are not free from. How many people in your "church" are free? No one is mad at the church here. That is a cop out on your part because you can't make the point. Just drop it telling us what we feel, because I for one do not feel it.
Thanks J.R., you really lost it. I do hope you feel better.
Only God can bring reform. I would love to see it in my lifetime.
We are not making disciples of the angered and disgruntled unless God sends them our way. We just reach the ones who need to be set free.
JR You already drug my name through the mud with your recent comments and accusations.
And Eric said, """"Yes, we must have reform, but Bob, you are not bringing reform. You are building a ministry of disciples based who have been hurt and who are angry and that will not come to a good end.
Thanks for the reminder. I know that! Only God can do such a thing. And you also know we are not building a movement on those who are hurt, right?
Senor, You and I will have a serious phone conversation in the very near future. I will deal with you privately.
You know we are making disciples for Jesus. Get off your agenda. Until then, we'll have some very important time together to discuss the deeper issues before us.
J.R. I am very disappointed in your last comment post. I expected far more from you.
Eric is correct, you do not know us.
And if I don't like the church-the machine that's my right, you know. I grieve at how we have corrupted the CHURCH - the Body of Christ and her Mission. You can keep dragging me through your mud - But remember you are dragging a brother in the Body of Christ.
Your assumptions are not true. What were you thinkin...brother?
You American Church pastors are killin me. Come on brothers, let's take a deep breath.
I took a Saturday leave from Blogging only to find this stuff going on and then I return tonight after having lots of time to think.
I sure wish you really knew how nice I am.
I should repent for making a blog post out of you. O.K. I'm sorry. But really my nephew Phil offered much more retraint and did not accuse anyone. Way to go boy! You out-shined all of us "repenting pastors". You must have some Carder in you. We "pastors" sure behaved badly. I guess we are all really human after all.
Still smiling...
I'm just following Jesus and helping others to do the same.
This format really isn't the greatest for these types of debates, but I hope we could all have gotten something out of it.
For now, I am out. I've got things to read and college stuff to do. I'll keep reading, but the comments will be fewer.
Uncle Bob, I hope that sometime we will both be home in Monroe so we can perhaps take a look at this verbally. I would like to see your smiles! This has been good. I've seen more clearly who you guys are, and hopefully you have seen the same of me. I look forward to talking with you one on one sometime!
I didn't say that Bob, that was a quote from JR I was replying to.
I thought I read it wrong. Just being careful after all the accusations above.
I don;t know what happened to J.R. He kinda fell over a cliff. I'm shocked, really.
Wow!!! More Christians Arguing and making threats to one another…Surprising!
You people wonder why Gandhi refused to become a Christian and why you are so unsuccessful at making a difference here in the real world. You preach love yet you cannot even love one another. You say you have the answers but it’s obvious you haven’t got a clue. You teach make disciples yet you sit around and argue about your stupid man made religious theories instead of making one. I argue that all of you are making disciples …bitter, mean spirited, lovers of anyone in your camp while casting stones at anyone who is not (praying curses on them as well I bet) Come on don’t lie... you people know you do it in the name of God! All collecting a fat pay check while sitting in your air conditioned offices each playing the Pope in your small ponds…please what a Joke.
The vanity of the whole thing kills me…arguing about your position and defending your right to be in charge while the one you say you believe teaches that the greatest in heaven is the least among you. I think he even uses the word servant…And I can assure you from this blog none of you are interested in being servants.
Now the real irony is that everyone keeps talking about Scripture…and I’m assuming because of the arrogance and tone that most of you are pastors…or want to be popes…
Here is your own scripture given to you by someone you call an unbelieving heathen. I’m taking this out of 2 Timothy 2 which I think is called the pastoral epistles…how funny!
14 Remind others about these things, and warn them in the sight of God not to argue over words. Arguing does not do any good but only destroys those who are listening. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as an approved worker who has nothing to be ashamed of, handling the word of truth with precision. 16 However, avoid pointless discussions. For people will become more and more ungodly, 17and what they say will spread everywhere like gangrene. Hymenaeus and Philetus are like that. 18 They have abandoned the truth by claiming that the resurrection has already taken place, and so they destroy the faith of others.
19 However, God’s solid foundation still stands. It has this inscription on it: “The Lord knows those who belong to him,” and “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord must turn away from evil.” 20 In a large house there are not only utensils made of gold and silver, but also those made of wood and clay. Some are for special use, while others are for ordinary use. 21 Therefore, if anyone stops associating with these people, he will become a special utensil, set apart for the owner’s use, prepared for every good work.
22 Flee from youthful passions. Instead, pursue righteousness, faithfulness, love, and peace together with those who call on the Lord with a pure heart. 23 Do not have anything to do with foolish and stupid discussions, because you know they breed arguments. 24 A servant of the Lord must not argue. Instead, he must be kind to everyone, teachable, willing to suffer wrong, 25 and gentle in refuting his opponents. After all, maybe God will allow them to repent and to come to a full knowledge of the truth, 26 so that they might escape from the devil’s snare, even though they’ve been held captive by him to do his will.
Alright, I’m no theologian…but how in the world do you expect people like me to take you serious when you cannot even obey your own rules given for the pastors…you people are idiots…does he not tell you that there are multiple utensils…
I think that you might want to consider that each of you falls under the title THESE PEOPLE…by your own rules it calls you out and tells those that are really His to stop associating with you…that’s right the pastors or leadership…so if I reading this correctly…If I want to be used by God, I need to stop following you pastors/people….
Righteous isn’t it! I guess the problem with all of you is that your repentance which you push so diligently was fake…because none of you have a pure heart based on the definition given here. Not surprising…I’ve thought you people where fake for years.
And finally I guess I should pray for you considering the fact you are captive to the devil and accomplishing his will…
And please don’t give me your mormon mantra that were just forgiven sinners saved by grace…that’s old already…we’ve seen what your leadership does when it falls…it writes books, speaks to larger crowds and collects bigger pay checks.
So go ahead and talk about your reformation and traditions…and maybe another person can be molested in your buildings, or another poor person can be escorted out of your sanctuary…or another billion dollars can go to feeding the literally fat clergy of our day…hey by the way isn’t there a STORY about fat priests that steal the peoples food or sacrifice or something in the bible. I guess things have not changes all that much after all.
You are making disciples like a said…but traditional or reformed they still look alike to me!
Anonymous, one of two things is going on with you.
1. You wondering on this blog and you really have no idea what we are really doing along with Bob
or
2. You are a member of the Midwest District pretending to be someone who wondered on the site.
I am thinking number 2. I am very sorry if this is not the case. Realize what Bob and the rest of us are doing here is St. Louis is different enough from everything else that we are widely hated for it.
thanks for your comments, Anony! I respect you for speaking up.
Like I said, we should all "repent".
God knows I need to from time to time.
Eric,
Dude...I'm neither of your choices...this is what I'm talking about...It is what it is and your what you are...self-centered religious person...At least the other cat gave me a chance to speak without accusing me of being some religious spy...your a joke Eric...
God help you all!
Believe what you will anonymous. You do not even know me or anything about me. I would be happy to talk to you sometime.
I just wonder if you are not connected to what is going on here in the background, why be anonymous?
Dude give Eric some grace, we have been beaten up by the Pastors. Eric is trying to keep the pastors in line. I give Him all of the grace I can muster. Thanks for your help here and your understanding goes without question. I appreciate you.
God is also using you in His unique ways.
Thanks to both of you. God is working!
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