Bob Robert's says it better in his book, "Transformation"
"What would it look like for your church to turn the world upside down? What would it be like for people to find Christ because of hundreds of new Christians' testimonies of radical transformation? What would it be like to celebrate what God is doing in all the Church, Capital C? What would it be like to see the entire body mobilized to touch people everywhere in all dimensions and not a church based on a single charismatic leader?"
The Planter: Now we're gettin somewhere! Can this happen or will we let this happen in America?
posted by Bob Carder @ 1:22 PM
7 comments
7 Comments:
Hi, Bob. I'm a non-believer, so I hope you don't mind if the "world" intrudes into your Christian sphere a little.
In recent years, I have re-newed my interest in spiritual matters, including the Christian faith.
First impression: From my experiences interacting with Christians in blogs like this, there is no such thing as radical transformation. Christians have no deeper understanding of life. They are not spirituality more advanced/mature than other people. Christianity merely appears to be a source of deep emotional comfort - but Christians have no clear answer to controlling emotions and developing healthy emotional lives.
Second impression: Christians are not really interested in talking to the world about their message. Sure, they will reply to questions occasionally, but few will take the time to really engage in meaningful dialogue with non-Christians. Christians seem to be more interested in re-arranging the chairs on the Titanic, or desparately trying to stop the collapse of their faith in the Western world.
Third impression: I've also looked at other faiths, especially Buddhism. What I found surprising, was that Buddhists are interested in engaging with the world, have very practical strategies for developing better lives, personally and socially, have a clear, analytical and relational philosophy. All this without the "Jesus saves" gobbledy-gook proffered by Christianity.
david...I'm sure that Bob is going to be thrilled that you "intruded" into his Christian sphere (which happens to be mine, I might add). In fact we look forward to being able to share what we know and believe. I hear you and understand your misconceptions of my faith. I regret that those you have come into contact with have not been able to share with you the radical transformation that a personal relationship with Jesus Christ offers. Knowing the Creator does, in fact, give me a greater understanding of life and the struggles that living in a fallen world brings. I'm glad that it appears to you that my faith offers a deep emotional comfort because you have percieved correctly. I, however, would not use the word "merely" because emotional comfort in this day and age is huge. I may not have all the right answers for emotional health and controlling emotions but I'm connected to One who does.
Your next concerns grieve me greatly and that is why I am so glad you decided to talk to...or blog...Bob. He is going to talk your head off (and I say that lovingly)...he loves to answer questions and i can't wait to see the conversations here in print...but if I know him, he will have you face to face in the local coffee shop and I will have to miss it all!!!! Get your questions ready and have a blast!!! Judy M
David, Never an intrusion, in fact this is a blog for everyone. We are finding allot of people especially in their 20's who have left the western church. This age group is the most spiritual in American history. It will likely be this group who leads westernized Christianity away from the nonsense and back to (New Testament Christianity) living authentically for Jesus so that Jesus can reach others through us.
I answer as one who has experienced what you describe. My response to you comes out of my life as God continues to transform me into His likeness and lead into His mission into the world. What I describe is not Churchianity it is Christianity the way Jesus intended for all of us.
1.I see your point. We have largely made good church members when we should have been making authentic Christ followers who live the way Jesus lived in the world. After being a pastor for 23+ years, I left my last church and didn't take another one because I knew God had something more to offer than the church would allow. So we are on a journey to make disciples or Christ followers who live Jesus instead of just talking about Him so that others can also find Him. The best sermon anyone can have is the one that is seen and not just heard.
2.Sadly this has been the case more than it should have been. We have discovered that we don't need buildings, big budgets, more pews for more butts and we definitely do not need more programs to attract more people. As soon as we let go of those things and our consumerism in church we began to see clearly our mission in the world. As we read about the people Jesus ministered to and the people He hung around with and the miracles He displayed we see transformation. As we see what Jesus did then we can expect Him to do much of the same transformation today.
3.The westernized church has largely failed to show the world who Jesus is. Jesus is greater than anyone and His message is a redemptive one. The good news is that you can have Jesus without all the nonsense. You don't have to fit in a certain mold.. You don't have to look like a certain group. You don't have to find Jesus a certain way. Jesus knows your heart and He loves you and accepts you and He will lead you just as He promised.
What I describe is something Jesus lived and taught without all the trappings of westernized Christianity. I believe you long for what I have longed for. The real deal! As we live in the world we do so with no motives other than to live in such a way to live so others can see Jesus in us.
David, tell me more! I have not addressed everything, but I tried to give you a glimpse into what I believe God wants to do in the world and how God is reshaping a movement that brings us back to living the way Jesus really intended in the first place.
While believers have at times been the problem and while the church has at times been the problem, remember, Jesus has never been the problem and He has always been the answer.
I love your open honesty and your comments are safe here. As I spend my life in coffee shops, restaurants, book stores etc. I am hearing your story over and over again. God has brought you here for a reason, hang with us.
Can this happen or will we let this hapen in America (refer to my original post?
1. In the established church it is less hopeful if even possible.
2. In new emerging disciple (making) driven new Churches I am seeing it happen. When the focus is not on ourselves but on the reason Jesus came and died we become forced to look through the lens of Christianity differently than ever before.
Could I have made sacred and even worshipped the church more than the Christ, my Savior?
What do you think. What would it take for your church to become what Bob Robert's describes?
David,
I appreciate your candidness, the church needs to hear from more people such as yourself. I for one am listening and would love to hear more. If I may address some of your comments:
Christianinty has become the icon of American History, and as such many have claimed Christianity as their heritage. Church attendance has for many become the act of claiming their heritage without the substance of Christ. Likewise if Christianity has become the icon of American History then the Bible has become the icon of Christianity, and as such the Bible can be found in over 90% of the homes in America (usually dust covered and unread). The church has taken the life found in the Bible and reduced it to spiritual truths of ages past, and God has been reduced to the God who did instead of the God who does and is doing.
The Bible does infact contain the answers to your questions regarding developing healthy emotions. You see once we remove the icon status and once again begin to see the Bible as the inspired, living word of God it can and does transform lives, emotions, marraiges... etc.
For many the idea of talking to the world about the Christian message is reduced to sharing their American Heritage: "well I'm a Christian" but the backbone, the crux of real Christianity goes much deeper than that, unfortunatly many simply only embrace it as the past rather than the now.
Many of us have no desire to try to stop the collapse of that kind of faith because some of us believe that that kind of faith must collapse in order for the living faith in our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed in the lives of those living in a powerless rote of tradition they call faith.
I prefer to not run arounf with all the Jesus saves gobbledy gook and live that Jesus Saved and transformed my life and you can live victorious today... victoriously in your emotions, your marraige, your finances, all your life wholly. And I would love the oppertunity to share with you how.
The Bible is full of practical strategies for developing better lives and it differes from buddhism in that it is found in a relationship, not in a set of behaviors.
Thank you for sharing with us please come and share more, or as the scripture says "come let us reason together"
Thankyou all for your generous and considered responses.
One thing I must constantly re-learn, by the way, is not to attack other people's faith - especially if they are practising it in a way that benefits others. From what I've read so far on this blog, I can see that focus on practice and relating to others coming through the various comments.
So I'll be back with responses to the various topics where I can offer something meaningful.
David, you are welcome back and you have much to offer.
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