The change process...
Are you an ostrich or a badger?
I have on occasion hunted for mule deer in Buffalo, Wyoming. One of the most watched out for animals in my book, is the badger. I came within 2 feet of one several years ago and as our eyes connected we froze in place, me with goosebumps and the badger with the hair on its back raised. Had I not looked down I would have stepped on it. Badgers are known to crawl right up the front side of you headed for the first sign of exposed skin. They are mean. My friend Don had a badger come out of a hole and charge him, and for the first time since I have known him, he was able to hit the target and did so just several feet in front of him. I asked Him how he did that, I mean hit the badger, he said, " a mans got to do what a mans got to do when a mans got to do it." :)
You know the old saying, get your head out of the sand. That is the ostrich. Face your enemy or die with your head in the sand. Are you an ostrich or a badger with reference to the state of the church in America? Some love for the we are all okay, you're okay, I'm okay, let's talk about the good things, but the sad truth is that we are not okay. The church in America is in serious trouble. Barna says that 50% of our churches will close their doors in the next 20 years. So you see, what we do today has everything to do with the generations of children not yet born. It's time to quit feeling warm fuzzies and get our heads out of the sand and start acting like badgers. Serious times demand serious actions.
As we blog I am finding people on all levels of the change process. Because we are at different places we experience frustration at different levels.
If we are going to change to course of the American Church we must engage a change process. As some of you have noticed this is the purpose of this blog to move leaders from unaware to aware, to .... to bring needed change. Where are you? Before the launch of a new direction, bring your people along and know where they are in the the change process. When I pastored I didn't accurately perceive where my leaders were, and while I thought they were further down the road I later realized they we just starting to become aware. Where are you and where are your people with reference to the state of the church in America?
1. Unaware -Everything is just peachy, my church is doing great.
2. Aware - Oh my goodness how could I have not seen this before?
3. Embracing - There is a need to do something about this NOW.
4. Implementation -Here are some steps I am going to take to engage the problem.
5. Results - Because of the above things we are now moving in a different direction united.
Pastor/leaders I just gave you a sack of gold. If you want to bring your church through change you have to walk them through this process. CAUTION: About the time we think our people get it, that is about the time they are just barely getting it. Our leaders are often unaware when we are trying to implement a new direction/course. Here's where the dream of something new and better dies for lack of understanding and support.
You'll get little warm fuzzies here. Desperate times demand desperate action. I grieve for the American church because we are drifting on the troubled sea because we refuse to follow the compass to guide our way.
posted by Bob Carder @ 12:25 PM
24 comments
24 Comments:
Bob - I understand what you're saying, but let me be a bit picky about one phrase. You wrote: 'The church in America is in serious trouble. Barna says that 50% of our churches will close their doors in the next 20 years.'
Jesus said, 'I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.' God will make sure that the church in America survives. I don't think we need to manipulate people with threats of dying churches, liberal legislation, or whatever.
If 50% of all churches close their doors in the next 20 years, what will we have really lost? Anything? Who cares? Personally, I'm not trying to save anything - American church or otherwise. I'm just learning what it means to trust God with each new day and in each new circumstance, and by his grace I'm trying to help others do the same. God will help us figure out ways to obey him, worship him, and serve those around us in love. Some (maybe most) of the conventional churches will not survive the changes in our society, but the Church will.
Let's just make disciples - not to save the church, but to be faithful to God.
I see what rick is saying... if 50% of our attractional churches close, that is 50% fewer doors to heat, clean, expand, and most of all hide behind. I say let it happen. Then we'll have 50% more money to do what the bible says to do instead of what we are doing. we musn't fall back and protect what we have now. The line must be drawn in the world not at a church door. That is the way it once was, and we fell back too many times. Remember, "the GATES of hell will not prevail against it" We should be on the attack, not the defense.
Rick if we would only make disciples who make disciples we won't have any problems.
Let me remind you of the history of Christianity in Europe. I do not want the American Church to stay on her impending train wreck similiar to that of Europe.
I agree the church will survive because we and others are doing what Jesus said when He said, "go and make disciples..." I just wish for the church in America to realize this priority and change before it is too late for their faith community and town.
Did the church really survive in Europe? What happened to all those Christ followers anyway? Did they multiply their lives by making disciples? What am I missing here?
I'm gonna keep stirring the pot in hopes that American leaders might open up enough to see this truth. Maybe some will change, hence the reason for my post. Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could multiply what you are doing by making disciples who are also making them?
Are you are trying to get me fired up? No one is manipulating anyone with threats of anykind. These is reality. You should visit America and attend a few churches to see for yourself. You'll be knocked off your horse by the jousting of our comfortable ways.
I pray others will see what you see regarding disciple making? Do other Christ followers in your church make disciples who do the same? Tell me more, my friend.
Yeh, Anthony. I love the attack approach. Count me in. I just pray some other young (or otherwise) leaders in America will join with the vision of a new day and a new way (really an old one) for the Church to BE the Church instead of just doing church.
Leaders - If you are out there, let's connect. We can charge right into the world where people work and live and just make disciples who make disciples. As we make disciples God will birth /build His Church just like He said and just like he wants them to be.
I guess I see Rick's comments more clearly with your added response.
You are both a blessing, keep charging but look out for the jousting.
Anthony, Are you jousting me?
I have too much to say here – too much offensive and controversial stuff. Maybe its all that pain I have in me that Bob pointed out to me. Ohh well – here goes. God does not promise to have a church in America but he will preserve a remnant somewhere. You’ve hit me on a passion point here Rick, so take me with a grain of salt. I don’t think that pointing to a dying church is manipulation or threat. I see it as passion for the bride of Christ. To say what if 50% of the churches close what have we lost - !!!! We have allowed the Bride of Christ to suffer harm. We have allowed evil to overcome good and for what? Do we not care enough to sound the alarm? I do! Do we not care enough to point out error and encourage adherence to the teaching of Christ?
I cherish every church in America today. I know many of you think by my words that I don’t but that is not true. Go look at my other ministry besides True Vine. http://www.sunministries.org. I love the church – I agree with Bill Hybel’s that the local church is the hope of the world. I think leaders the church should have kicked out long ago have in many cases hijacked it. I think consumerism and self indulgence has crept in where grace and the power of the Holy Spirit have been pushed out. I do not want to tear down a single church. I want to sound the alarm before it’s too late. I sometimes feel like running through the streets shouting at the top of my lungs – Widows, orphans, the oppressed, those in bondage to sin need us and our resources more than they need stadium seating and a great show. Does this make me judgmental and bitter? Then label me and condemn me but you cannot silence me.
I will make disciples that make disciples with every breath but there is no us versus them mentality in me. Let me make this clear. I long to see every church in America and beyond embrace their responsibility to have every follower join in fulfilling the Great Commission. I do not want to lose another part of this cherished body I call Christ’s Bride. Wheww!!! I feel better – how about you?
Bob and Terry - I love the conversation with you guys! I really hope there is a chance to connect face to face when I'm in the states this summer.
Both your posts demand a response, and I want to give one, but I also want to think about what I say before I say it, and I've got a real busy day today. I may have some time later this morning if I can work it in.
You asked, Bob, how I'm doing it. You can get a 'slice' of how I minister at the latest entry on my blog - www.honest2blog.wordpress.com
We have multiple discipleship links taking place here beyond the fourth generation. The Europeans are the hardest, but I'll write more about that later.
Blessings,
Rick
My Pastor Terry, you are the leader I choose to join in ministry with because we share the passion of making disciples who all fulfill the Great Commission. I'm thrilled that God brought you into my life and that we are a team together experiencing things we have never seen or experienced before. You allow the Holy Spirit to lead you and you follow those promptings and lead others to be the same. I love your passion and your discipline to lead others to be all that Jesus desires for all of us. You are the first pastor in our disciples making disciples movement and I am glad to call you my pastor.
I lead you and you lead me and you lead me and I lead you. We don't care about anything but fulfilling the Great Commission by leading others to do the same. Thank you, Pastor.
Oh my goodness. Rick I will travel wherever to have some time with you. Let me know when you arrive and where I need to be or the connection etc. I'll do my best to bring Pastor Terry along with me.
Terry and I share the same passion of sounding the clarion call for a shift before it is too late and it will soon be too late. You will seee that this summer for yourself.
You may want to consider why the church is declining in America and in other western countries.
Most people, except for many Christians, understand that the beliefs of Christianity are based on historical falsehoods. There is little evidence that Jesus ever existed; there is no support for many of the events mentioned in the gospels.
Quoting from http://hamsa.org/preface.htm (go to Christianity crumbles in the West)
"Why has it happened? “The point simply is,” observes Koenraad Elst, “that we, European Christians of many generations, have outgrown Christianity. Most people who left the church have found that they are not missing anything, and that beliefs which provided a framework for interpreting and shaping life, were but a bizarre and unnecessary construction after all. We know that Jesus was not God’s Only-begotten Son, that he did not save humanity from eternal sin, and that our happiness in this world or the next does not depend on believing these or any other dogmas.” In fact, it is wrong to talk any more of a “Christian West”, as most of us continue to do."
I know it's harsh, but if you look at the evidence and think rationally, you have to conclude that Christianity has had its day.
So that's one point of view. I also hold another that is in contradiction to this one (can't decide which, if any, is historically accurate).
The second view is that there was a historical Jesus, but the form of Christianity we have today is a far cry from Jesus' original teachings. The original Jewish followers of Christ did not see him as a sacrificial saviour (that would have been abhorent), but a figure similar to the Buddha, with similar teachings.
I wonder why Christians don't investigate the history of christianity carefully. And then discuss how it is we have the current canon and set of beliefs as they are today.
Rick you said " I also want to think about what I say before I say it,"
That is profound - I might start trying that too - maybe:) - hummmmm!!
Terry, don't hmmmm to hard before speaking, I loved what you had to say. It needed to be said.
David, I appreciate your comments. A good read. I see where you are coming from.
I think you started down the right road when you said something like - Christianity in the west is in decline because we have left the original teaching of Jesus. But then you fell into the ditch when you put Jesus on the same level as just another prophet etc.
It is true that during the rule of Constantine, he made Christianity the state religion and when that happened the whole thing soon became institutionalized.
The problem in the west is not with Jesus it is with the institutional thing. While we are seeing an institutional and declining church here in the west we are not seeing a decline in the power of Jesus to change and transform lives for eternity.
Those you describe or mention who claim to have outgrown Christianity are the one who didn't really have the Christ in Christianity. They had "ianity" and perhaps they just went through the institutional gig without the real lifechanging Savior.
Since you challenged our blogland to look at historical Christianity and see the flaws, I would challenge you to look at historical Christianity and see how the flawed led you to believe in flaws that were not there.
David, here you go. Pick up "Evidence That Demands A Verdict" by Josh McDowell Josh McDowell, a deep thinker who was an atheist who set out on a journey to disprove Christianity and Jesus as the Savior of the world. Guess what? In His attempts to disprove he ended up proving that Christianity is all that she claims to be. Jesus is the only Savior and if you read this book and all the historical documentation included you will see something you really don't want to miss.
David, I know you are searching for truth and I believe you are open enough to really find it. Let me know what you think of the book.
Tell me more about who you are.
David - are you in Europe? The history of Christianity in Europe is very different than in America (and it's even different in different parts of Europe). Europe was never really Christian. It was just Christianized. And yes, Western/Northern Europe has outgrown it. However, in Cyprus the Orthodox Churches are generally full to capacity (while the evangelical churches are empty), and a more evangelical type of Christianity is growing in many parts of Eastern Europe. But a lot of this - Orthodox or Evangelical - has more to do with sociology than authentic faith.
But that doesn't mean that God isn't working. We just don't always have the 'eyes' to see where. We come with preconceived agendas and find it hard to see God at work in other places. It's true for every single one of us.
One of the best books I've read to help me deal with the whole question of God is Leslie Newbigin's 'Proper Confidence: Faith, Doubt, and Certainty in Christian Discipleship.' He argues that both the liberal and fundamentalist arms of Christianity have been taken hostage by Englightment thinking.
In other words, both liberal and evangelical Christianity were birthed in the context of modernity. As modernity is increasingly unbelievable, churches that reflect modern values are also irrelevant and unbelievable. Deconstruction is happening everywhere - not only in the church (as reflected in blogs like this), but also in politics, science, economics, and culture. Newbigin points us back to faith - not evidence - as the foundation for a relationship with God. There's not enough space to fully deal with it here.
We are more influenced by our culture than we may like to believe.
I'm in Australia, by the way (until the water runs out). Rick, the Biblical God is a problematic concept.
"Evidence that demands a verdict" has been refuted, see "The Jury Is In"
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/jury/
Bob, you seem to ignore the last 200 years of critical scholarship. What do you think of the Jesus Seminar?
The idea of a Saviour God seems very strange (maybe that's my modern background, Rick). The concept of God sacrificing a bit of Himself to Himself to give Himself permission to change conditions/rules He made up Himself, just seems non-sensical. Although I do understand the emotional appeal of a suffering Saviour.
David, Everything is refuted these days so that comments weighs in about a zero. What I asked you to do was read the book and tell me what you think of it.
Otherwise my walk with Christ is a faith based total belief in His being my Lord and the only Lord and Savior.
It is very easy to refute something you have not experienced for yourself. What can I say, from where I come from God has changed my life. If you only knew. And, it is not an emotional thing, it is a true logical fact. It's one thing to have head knowledge and it is quite another to have ones heart changed.
What if? What if in your situation Jesus is the one and only Savior? Then what for you?
You can make your case but I have tasted and seen that Jesus is good and real and Mohamed nor has Buddha done for me what Jesus has. In fact, no comparison whatsoever. I'm not emotional so don't draw that card.
I cannot make you see the Truth about Jesus and Jesus will never force you to see the Truth about Himself. This is your choice, I just pray you will first experience Jesus before writing Him off.
Millions has experienced what Jesus does when He transforms lives, and there is still room for another to see Jesus as I do.
Would you at least read "The Evidence that Demands a Verdict?" What do you want me to read?
Love you brother, so keep coming back, I don't have time to worship a phony and neither do you. But if you will dig deeper you may be pleasantly surprised and fulfilled. I can't do that for you, you must taste and see for yourself.
Dave - I have something that I wrote for a seminary class on the Jesus Seminar. Email my privately at cyprusdugan@yahoo.com if you'd like to discuss it privately.
Bob, I'm not asking you to read anything. Nor do I wish to evangelise atheism, Buddhism or any other ism, ianity or insanity.
Having read about "Evidence that Demands a Verdict", it seems it would be of little benefit, personally.
If the Jesus Seminar is trying to arrive at truth through a voting system, then I don't think it will find it. Still, I'd be interested to hear what you wrote, Rick, so I've sent you brief email.
Bob wrote: Did the church really survive in Europe? What happened to all those Christ followers anyway? Did they multiply their lives by making disciples? What am I missing here?
As I've said, Europe was never really Christian, just Christianized. What we are witnessing is the end of Christendom - where Christian culture and values wield tremendous influence over society. Trying to 'save' that influence - whether in America or Europe - is a mistake, I believe.
We need to just be spiritually sensitive enough to see God at work wherever he chooses to work - in an Anglo Catholic Episcipal church, an independent African Pentecostal church, or in Starbuck's.
It's not simply that our organizational structures don't work anymore. It's our theology and spirituality that is broke. But while I see growing numbers of people in the evangelical church willing to abandon traditional structures (which, BTW, is nothing new for evangelicals - we've been doing that repeatedly since the Reformation), we are not yet willing to rethink our theology, which remains trapped in modernity.
David, As I read through your comments from the outset you sounded like you were intellectually gifted and that you had something to offer and that you were seeking for Truth. After seeing the progression of your comments I have come to believe that you have ulterior motives, nor do you really want to listen to learn to experience Jesus.
I have nothing to offer you based on your lack of willingness to pull out of the propaganda spreading business.
Blogland -- Here's a snippet from the infidel sight David subscribes to: Lord Bacon says that atheism leaves to man reason, philosophy, natural piety, laws, reputation, and everything that can serve to conduct him to virtue; but superstition destroys all these, and erects itself into a tyranny over the understandings of men: hence atheism never disturbs the government, but renders man more clear- sighted, since he sees nothing beyond the boundaries of the present life. -- Bacon's Moral Essays.
As of today I will not allow anymore of this propaganda nonsense that seeks to destroy faith in God. I turn you over to Rick Dugan for private discussions and perhaps he can lead you to the One you refuse with all your might to see. I just hope you don't waste and distract Rick from doing what God needs Him to do. If you hunger for God, he'll lead you.
If Jesus is my Savior and I and millions of others are right to believe that He is -where does that leave you after death? I do not want a response, just think about it.
By the way, the Infidel website is a great description/label/name for them and others who subscribe to any of the propaganda nonsense they and others promote.
I have never deleted comments, but in the future I will delete yours. Not because I fear your words - but because I will not let you spread propaganda on this site.
The disciples were eye witnesses to the life and teachings of Jesus. They saw Him die and they saw Him later alive and also ascend into heaven. Josh McDowell quotes historical documents (Evidence the Demands a Verdict) and I might add, I would rather look to the eye witness accounts rather than the propaganda machine of the likes of those infidels who discredit without any basis anything that validates The Christ, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
You discredit all that validates Jesus and I rebuke you in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
I do appreciate no further dialogue with you. What you offer has no place here in this context.
For those of you who think this is too harsh - you need to revisit the Scriptures and see that this is sometimes needed and as I am led by God's Spirit - I am very sure this is needed. So I don't need anyone coming around crying and sobbing over this issue. It's a case closed deal. Just read the Scriptures and see how appropriate this really is. We need more of this in our churches also.
Okay, I admit it, I feel I was too hard on David. I sense God speaking to me since my comments about this and since I am not Jesus I don't really know how He would address this issue. So today I asked for forgiveness and I ask David to forgive me. If David only know how real, broken, sinful and in need of God's forgiveness and the recipients of such, He would understand that we all like Him with our struggles but with differing issues. I know Jesus has forgiven me and if David feels wronged from (anything I said) I ask for your forgiveness.
I do want to address sincerity and true searching here, but, I do not have time for any propaganda pushing. I also cannot risk judging motives - and I wish I would have asked more questions of David to address his motivations from His own words.
Those sights he posted were inappropriate in my mind, but I still find myself wanting to love you (David), in Christ just as Jesus does.
If you feel I have hurt or wronged you, please forgive me and let me know it.
Again, where in the world are you?
I want to hear back from you.
I must admit, I did feel slightly hurt, but for reasons I'll explain below, used your response as another "life lesson". So I have no remaining hard feelings, and it is with a degree of surprise that I find myself welcome back to your blog - appreciate that gesture very much, Bob.
So, what is this lesson? Well, I have come to realise that people who are always friendly, smooth-talking, diplomatic, socially skilled, people who never point out faults, who never get irritated by what you do, cannot contribute to one's increased happiness.
Rather, I learn more about my own deficiencies when other people get annoyed, when my wife nags at me, when my kids say "Dad, you need to do an anger management course". Or when Bob says I'm in the propaganda spreading business.
Instead of reacting with anger or annoyance, I have realised, and are continually trying to learn, to react with calmness, to be indifferent to perceived harms, to find a more beneficial response.
To effect this change, there must be a change within my mind. It's because my mind needs to be transformed, that I feel anger. It's not a fault with the other person, it's a problem within me that I need to fix.
Now Bob, you might say that this is where the Holy Spirit comes into play. That is where we would disagree - regardless of whether you believe in an external power that can help you, I still think it requires effort on your own part.
Ok, that's enough propaganda from me.
To clarify that last statement, I did not mean disparage belief in the Holy Spirit.
If discussion was to be had, I guess a question would be, regardless of whether external assistance is claimed, does one still need to exert effort in improving one's life?
Anticipating your answer along the lines of there is only so much that one can personally do, but God makes it complete, I would reply that from observation and life experience, it appears that the effect of God-indwelling appears to make little difference, if any, as it is overwhelmed by our own self-perception, social expectations, interaction with other people, etc. You can see this in the possible trite observation that people of whatever religious persuasion, or of no religious persuasion, exhibit the same wide variation in human behaviour.
So, statistically, do Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, atheists, calathumpians, etc, have a better chance at increased happiness than other groups of people - I suspect not.
David, It does take the Holy Spirit as well as personal effort to impliment change. The Holy Spirit convicts and teaches and when He points something out in my heart and life it is my job to make it right as I did with you. Thank you for forgiveness -it is refreshing to be forgiven. I felt convicted by the Holy Spirit to get back with you and ask for forgiveness. I'm not sure I would have even thought about it without His leading. I'm a stong and high "D" personality which is a driven and at times I have been a bull in a china shop. I don't natural feel for others -I naturally do not care what others think. But, with God's help I am improving and He helps me and of course I have to do my part.
What I asked of you, because I felt I may have wronged you, is what God asks of us. Because we have a fallen and bent nature to do evil He wants us to ask Him for forgiveness and just the way you have forgiven me -He wants to forgive you and me. I almost daily see something in my life that needs to be improved. As I change it with God's help and where needed ask for His forgiving blessing I always feel a load lift from my life. As was the case with you.
We can agree to disagree agreeably. That's what makes living in this world a better place. We don't have to all agree, but since I have tasted and seen that God is good, you can't convince me otherwise. I have my mind, heart and lifestyles being transformed with a new mind, heart and lifestyles as I listen to and follow Jesus.
I cannot comprehend why anyone who has ever had Jesus who would leave Him.
I love your search for Truth, I admire that in you. I just pray that I'm reading you right and that you are truly open to seeing Truth. I have looked at the other side and decided to live with Jesus. Josh McDowell although discredited by some gives some historical evidence that goes way back to Jesus that is worth exploring. I just wish you would read it, it is an excellent and scholarly read.
Thnaks for forgiving me just as Jesus has and does. It makes my load lighter and my life more peace-filled. I want to live above reproach and with a Jesus witness.
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