Would He, Could He, Should He?
Would He, could He and should He be hired in your church. Would Jesus ever be considered to become the pastor of your church by your search committee? Could Jesus ever be recommended and voted in as your pastor? Should Jesus be hired in your church?
If Jesus became your Pastor in the flesh, what would your church look like and how would it change and how long would Jesus remain Pastor before being fired?
Any thoughts...
posted by Bob Carder @ 10:39 AM
35 comments
35 Comments:
I don't know of any way to answer that question, Bobert.
Why, Mike? You are a word smith and you are wise. Answer it with honesty!
Boberto
Hey we have Jesus and He is the incarnate God and He is our pastor! He is a great leader, He chairs our board so superbly,even though we are not sure we agree with His direction. He is a good committee pastor when we shows up. We wait for the sermon and he doesn't show up because He is in a bar somewhere preaching "our sermon" to the drunks and prostitutes and our feelings are hurt because we are left out. We pay His salary and he never preaches in our church for those of us who need to hear sermons. He is always in the world and leaving us out as He reaches out to the races of the world but they never come to church. We cannot control Him, He does not do what we ask or expect. He is not running our church like we expect him too.
I never see Him, and He is my pastor! What are we to do with this pastor we cannot control. After all, we do pay His salary!
Mike, how's that for starters?
But that's not what you asked. You asked if Jesus could be hired at our church as pastor. You didn't ask what he would do if he were pastor of our church.
I do not think you have it all right in your description. The apostles were often some of the most dense people when it came to Christ's mission, the Church, and the Kingdom...but he did NOT leave them behind to minister to others. He TOOK THEM ALONG as he ministered to others and that's how they learned. I don't see that Christ would change that tactic if he were pastor of our church.
Which probably means in my response and yours that the answer is no. He could not, would not be hire by your church because your church isn't looking for that in a pastor. Isn't this correct?
My response above was trying to help people see that Jesus could NOT be hired as pastor within the context of what is expected of a pastor.
Now what are we supposed to do? If Jesus wouldn't be blessed to fulfill His mission as pastor how in the world are we to fulfill that same mission under the authority of leaders who insist we do it as we have always done it?
Politically I was encouraged out of your church because I was bringing in the Hispanics. There was a group of leaders who are prejudice, deacon chair, board chair and office administer. Now what? The Hispanics are taking over the place and our wealthy image is stained.
Jesus couldn't pastor in the American traditional context because Jesus would fulfill His kingdom mandate found in the Great Commission to save the world from their sin.
How can we expect the Savior of the world and leaders across this nation and world to serve a Christ placed in a very small box. Let's let him out in all of our Churches and let's give the people a released to go and be led by the Spirit of God to serve as God leads them in the world. I did not say church, I said let them be the Church. Notice the caps on church and Church because they mean something.
Now if by some miracle Jesus were your pastor -what would he most like about your church? or Church?
Come on Mike!
He would be immensely welcomed as the pastor of our church.
What would Jesus most like about our church? What would He most like about any church? Us. Would we, as a body, disappoint him? Yes. Would we, as a body, encourage Him? Yes.
Remember, Robert, Christ does not see what is, He sees what can be. He did not give people up for lost. He continued to try and reach them until "It is finished" and is still reaching out today.
WE, you and I, may get discouraged with the Church, but does Christ? I don't think so, because He knows us. He knows our imperfections and our strivings to be more. AND HE LOVES US ANYWAY.
Mike E,
Oh goody, I hit that nerve again!
What nerve I have to hit that nerve?
Christ never gives up on us, we give up on others. He would love the Church (His body) and He would be pleased with the Church (His body) fulfilling the mission He left for us to continue.
He would be welcome in the Church (the body) but I do not think He would be welcome in the church (the thing we most like to do).
Pleasing Jesus is more than feeding ourselves, our own spiritual growth, singing in the choir and taking care of the already reached. We have proven to do that all to well.
What about the other part, the main part of the Mission as detailed in Matthew 28.
I'm disgusted not discouraged with the church who has lost her way and neglects the the others Jesus came and died for. Don't forget that He also left a mandate for you and everyone to carry on the mission He started. I'm not sure anyone can justify living in the bubble of holy huddles. Oh I forgot, those others might somehow disrupt our cleverly man driven deeds.
The Word of God is clear. God to church that's great. Being the Church is, well that's a different story. Jesus loves the (C)hurch but will spew out the church that just plays together. They look like the real thing but do not act accordingly.
I'm on a roll...
I must quit hitting the ! key. It's too feminine for the mocho guy I am! I hope, I am.
OH BILL#*#* Now that's better, whatever better is.
No nerves hit here, Bobert. Remember, I agree with you that the Church is not all she should be.
And I also agree with you when you say "Christ never gives up on us, we give up on others." That, if you read my post, is the whole point of my post.
You have given up on the church, Jesus has not. EVEN THOUGH the Church is not fulfilling all it is designed to fulfill, Jesus has not given up on it. Therefore, neither can I -- and, I think, neither should you. But that, I will admit, is just my opinion, not fact.
You keep thinking you're needling me, when all I'm trying to get you to do is broaden your vision. Not CHANGE it, broaden it. Add some grace for the church. Christ died for it, as imperfect as it is.
Amen
Mike - How do you know that Jesus has not given up on the "church". You keep saying that, so I would like to know how you can be so sure. If it is just your opinion then maybe you should broaden your vision not Bob.
Also what makes you sure that Bob has given up on the "church" - He supports mine in many ways. Are you implying my church is not part of what Christ died for?
Also - please don't use the big "C" Church when you say it is not fulfilling what it is designed for because that is never true. There is always a remnant.
Anonymous - you were pretty quick to amen - what do you think of my above questions about what you "amen"ed
Terry, you can't be serious? How do I know Jesus hasn't given up on the church? Have you noticed the end of the world there? Have I missed something?
Please don't make implications about what I'm saying. What a thing to suggest ... Why would you even write that?
Do we now need a medim-sized C to refer to the church that's not my local church but isn't this remnant you speak of? Are you changing the definition of the terms we use?
Yes, now I am getting riled. I don't appreciate you twisting my words around when if you've followed my posts here at all you know that none of what you suggest is found in my post.
Say what you're trying to say plainly.
Mike - if you follow this blog, and I know you do, then you know what I mean by big "C' and little "c" church.
The reason I wrote what I did is to counteract the innacuracy of your claim that Bob has given up on the church. Just to speak plainly for you and not twist your words here it is quoted from your post "You have given up on the church"
You can see by the annonymous Amen that you enforce this belief in others when you post it. And I know it is not true.
I am not changing the terms here. You are the one adding the Medium "c".
I am always speaking plainy so no need to think otherwise. I glad to see you admit you are getting riled. That is the first step.
In case you don't think a church can be "given up on" by Christ, your terms not mine, see Revelation chapters 2-4. His tolerance of our behavior is not granted without threat of removal.
I have not given up on the CHURCH Jesus died for. I am gravely disappointed with how much we love and defend the church that continues to act NOT like the CHURCH!
May God help us.
Mike you know I love and will never give up on the body of Christ. To hear you say that I have given up on the body hurts me gravely.
I'm like Charlie Brown who said, I love the CHURCH, it the church I cannot stand.
Why go through the motions when you can be in motion for Jesus. Lives for eternity are at stake. Why would anyone spend their time in a broken vessel when they can be set free to be Spirit led, connected to a Body of Christ who is Spirit led leading and discipling people to Jesus?
Mike now you hit the nerve. I've been on your side of the fence for more years than you have, what view of mine are you trying to widen? I have lived it, smelled it and eaten it.
When it comes to the church I am deeply saddened, but if you speak of the CHURCH now that gets me excited.
Let Be her and let's stop trying to be her in name only.
Jesus can give up on A church, not THE Church. I think if you read my post with the context that is there, you'll see that even if I didn't use the right case letter, I was referencing the right Church.
Just so we're clear: Little c is my local church big C is Christ's bride. Is there something I'm not understanding about that or do I have it wrong?
While it may not be the most accurate way to describe it, I'm fairly certain Bob knows what I mean when I say he has given up on the church. I meant this model of the church that is not your Great Commission model -- to use your language. Although I don't accept the limitations of your terms of GC and attractional. As if they are opposites.
And spare me your comments on getting riled being the "first step." The first step toward what, exactly? Getting someone riled is not a positive, in my opinion. And normally I am much better at controlling my responses in such situations. So I do apologize to you and the others on the blog for letting your post get under my skin. If I had it to do over, I would have addressed your comments differently.
Bob I hope my comment is now clarified on what I meant. I do know you would not give up on the body of Christ. There are just too many ways to use the word church and I, clearly, chose the wrong one.
Mike, I have not given up on any church nor have I given up on the Church of Jesus Christ.
You have no basis for making that claim. Unless of course I gave you that impression. Impressions and assumptions are not valid benchmarks for truth. Oh you know that!
If you are referring to the last church I pastored, while deeply disappointed in her (with strong evidence), I still pray for and desire her to be a Bride of Jesus that honors His death by engaging the mission in reaching the lost and making the Great Commission the main thing instead of cantatas or whatever. If you get what I mean.
I even love your church! I even love the Christ Body in your church. I just pray more of the Church (the Christ body) would spend less time in church (as the main thing) and more time being the Church in the world.
To make such a claim that I have given up disappoints me gravely and so does the AMEN that follows by an anonymous donor.
I like it when you get riled! It does help clear the clutter that restricts. When I get riled I always take a second look at my position. It's good to get riled. In fact, even though you hate conflict, conflict does lead to greater intimacy and deeper relationships.
I know you believe in what we are doing because you pray for us and support us financially. Although, I might get you ticked one of these days. I haven't given up on you, your church and I pray you won't someday give up on me. And I know you well enough to know that you are one of my most loyal comrads!
Love you, Mike
It's true, I do dislike conflict. The definition of the word rile, however, makes it clear why I disagree with your (and Terry's) claim that getting riled is a good "first step."
rile, v., 1. To stir to anger. See synonyms for "annoy."
To rile someone is to stir them to anger, and I don't think that is helpful. None of us need help getting angry.
And when I feel riled, then I feel as if someone is poking me with a stick, metaphorically, to make me angry. While I own my own anger, it further angers me that someone is trying to "make" me angry.
Now that all said, I am not so old or stubborn that I cannot take correction. And I do, humbly, thank you for correcting my misinterpretation of your stand on the church (capitalized or not) and whether you give/gave up on it.
See? You are still teaching me. I hope I am always able to learn from my elders. :)
I hope you never doubt my love, even when I write things that aren't true.
Sorry Mike, I was preferring the alternate definition from Dictionary.com
aroused to impatience or anger; "peeved about being left out";
It was often anger that moved people to action in the Bible, especially God. His anger brought judgement and justice, which then brought restoration and cleansing, then renewal.
What I mean by it being the first step is that maybe if you get angry enough at what you claim you agree with here, you might just take action.
So...how 'bout those Cardinals?
Terry: That is true HIS anger often accomplished those things.
Bill: When it comes to baseball, I much prefer football or basketball. I am no fan of our "national pasttime."
Mike, I love you brother!
The cards stink like they did this time last year. They lost a pitcher this AM in a car accident so pray for them.
Mike...you don't like baseball???
Mike, I have not given up on any sport nor have I given up on the past-time of the United States.
You have no basis for making that claim. Unless of course I gave you that impression. Impressions and assumptions are not valid benchmarks for truth. Oh you know that!
If you are referring to the last time the Cardinals played, while deeply disappointed in them (with strong evidence), I still pray for and desire them to be a World Series champion that honors the sport by engaging the game of reaching home plate and making the World Series the main thing instead of cantatas or whatever. If you get what I mean.
I even love your sport! I even love the sports of people in England. I just pray more of the NFL would spend less time in cheerleading (as the main thing) and more time being the great game that it is.
Bill
Bill:
I would love to meet you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I laughed. It was good.
I would love to meet you as well! Where are you?
Let's all meet and drink something cool and soothing to our souls. Why can't we all get together for crying out loud.
I am in Elkhart, IN, Bill. I know where Bob is. Am I remembering that you are in Atlanta? Or is that another poster?
We should set up a weekend to all gather in Nashville, TN. Is that kind of a midpoint for some of us?
I'm game if anyone else is. We could maybe all get there Friday night...spend the night...hang out together all day Saturday.
If anyone's interested, let me know. I'll coordinate the thing for us.
I'd love to, if we can arrange it! I don't want to post my contact info here, but Bob has it and he can share it with you.
Bobert...you game?
Maybe some of the other Bob-blogists would be up for joining us.
I'm kind of getting excited about this! Let's set up the first annual Bobert Convention in Nashville!
You guys are losing it!
Maybe even lost it..whatever it is.
I'm serious!!! Sounds like a great time. You in???
Bobby bobby bobby ... we can't have the Bobert experience if you're not there!!!!
Just say yes ...
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