My Mother-in-Law speaks
Dear Bob,
From my for what it is worth department:
I hope you know that we support ALL of your endeavors,
and you have always demonstrated wise thinking,
adaptation, responsibility to all, and many other
wonderful qualities. All your current inconveniences
are perplexing, but I feel that the things that I have
no control over are things for which I cannot feel
responsible. I hope you feel that as well.
Sometimes I think that your writings are very strong
about your previous life experiences. You did what
you were given to do at the time, and you meet many
needs. You raised the kids well in a good, safe, and
wholesome environment. Perhaps the church is not as
bad a place as you make it sound sometimes. It meets
the needs of many people and has served society well.
It is like education, the steel business, some
manufacturing and other things. The bigger the
corporation or organization the more impossible it is
to change. Education is moving toward home schooling,
private schools, etc because the public school is so
unweildy it cannot adapt. The steel business laid off
its people to retool from manual or computerization,
The manufacturing places put themselves out of
business and to other countries to meet the needs. So
it is with the church. However, some kids are still
learning, people adapted to new technology, yet some
of the old and the transitioning remains while life goes
on.
As I see it, you are an innovator to modify the
churches, but meanwhile some continue on as needed for
many people and others push into the next area of
progress, transitioning, and adapting.
The following message seems to point to those who are
trying to change as being very negative to those who
remain in position to assist in the transition. The
one who is accusing the old is doing the same thing
and becomes the offensive. If that makes sense. My
thought for the day.
Hope to hear from you soon and that you are surviving
all of the decision making. I would be glad to help
or hinder if we were closer.
Love,
Other Mom
Neil Cole thots
"The church in the West, unfortunately, is usually in
a defensive posture. Christians are notorious for
being against another institution. If it is not
enough, we are often threatened by one another. Some
of us don't feel comfortable unless we are on the
defense, as if defensive a sin. We are so defensive
that it has become offensive."
41 Comments:
Mom 11,
Thank you for your thoughts and they always come through clear, filled with great wisdom and are well taken.
I do intend to be hard, or rather harsh is my intent. Harsh because some who have the ability and who see what I see are ready to help lead a movement of change. I know some churchies get upset and or threatened and even I do from time to time. This blog is intentionally drawing and gathering those who are ready to sacrifice for a movement of life transformation.
Large churches will hang on longer but the smaller churches are losing their hope of survival. In the future I envision a church of megas and satellites in diverse locations where the pastor beams his message via satellite to a predetermined location. Same preacher 100 different locations. But (are they) leading people to Christ and more importantly getting them discipled to follow all that Jesus commands so that they too will lead others to Jesus and disciple them?
After Beulah, I will never take another Americanized church. Which means I may be on a garbage truck someday. :) But I would rather serve on a garbage truck than the other. At least I would be able to lead garbage people to Jesus. Garbage people need Jesus even when they stink like sh*#t. One stinker leads another stinker who leads another stinker until you have a church of the stinkers.
LOVE YOU, BOB
I love your analogy. Garbage guys work hard too. I know your focus is on getting "leaders". It is just
that my guess is that friends like Lou may take the blog in another way. Don't really know or have a clue. Post on blog if you wish the part that is relevent.
I decided to post it all.
What do the rest of you think?
I'm getting my bullet proof vest on.
I agree with you Bob, but I also agree with you Mom about your tone. That was one of the reasons, frankly, I left blogging behind for a time. I really got tired of feeling like I wasn't being heard. Sure, I don't feel like I was out and out disrespected here...but I do feel that when I brought up a contrary point of view that I was being lumped in with the "western" Church, and that automatically disqualified me.
My basic point has always been that even though by and large the western Church is missing in action, there are still good things happening and that is reason enough to not "disembowel" it by blog.
Plant new Churches!!! Yes, absolutely....But also work alongside those that already exist and be respectful...
Fellow Bloggers...
Bob was my pastor for 5 years and he was so mistreated by the "church" it was shameful. I am glad for one that he is not letting go of his calling. Bob you will certainly here "well done good and faithful servant."
Love In Christ,
Sam
"The Other Mom" sounds like a woman of great wisdom and gentleness. We would all do well to sit quietly at her feet and listen.
The Other Mom: May I come for a visit? :-)
Absolutely Spam!
Sam, God heals in mysterious ways. He used the painful to bring us to this exciting place of ministry outside of the old. Then in our disciple making community they laid hands on me and prayed for my healing. Guess what? The floodgates of healing came over me. When God heals He does it right.
Bill, you are right. We would all do good to listen to our mother-in-laws.
To ALL: The tone has been intentional. Nothing my Mom 2 said was of surprise but I sure wanted to post it. So I used the cut and paste method and made it an entire post. :)
bob, your other mom is right. and she's not the first one to say it, on this blog even. we cannot be divided against ourselves. there really is only one true church anyway, and we can't keep striving against one another. Christ loves the church, we might as well, too.
She's only right if you misunderstand what we are doing. And then she may be right anyway. She is more right than wrong. But never totally right some of the time. I'm messing with you, can't you tell?
We are not divided against each other. We are in the same family. Christ loves His church so much that He will judge her and hold her accountable for her/OUR actions or lack thereof. When we stand before Him He will care little about our church life. He may ask us all, where are the souls you bring with you in fulfillment to my greatest Great Commissional command.
I'm like a voice in the wilderness calling the church in America back to the fulfillment of the Great Commission. Just as it is my responsibility to make disciples it is also yours and every other believer.
We are not divided as children of God. We are as a church on the offense/defense as to what is most important regarding the mission of the Church of Christ. I guess I'll die (maybe alone) proclaiming that all Christ followers are mandated to make disciples who make disciples themselves. I'm glad to be accused of something.
Harsh -maybe/hopefully! Truth -YES! You have always known me to tell it like it is. Right? Oh I forgot to add, hard headed too.
Love you Adam! :)
Bob - you will not die alone proclaiming your message. Let the offended work out their issues of why they are offended. If you had done it their way I would have never listened and most of them still haven't.
This "tone" I hear so much about is all in the eye or ear of the reader. Proclaim it the way God puts it on your heart. I am with you because of your boldness to confront me with my selfish ways. They are not your Holy Spirit.
I had a great conversation last night with another of your fourth generation disciples. It took place ot the second church in our movement. By the way Great-Grandpa you gained two more fourth generation disciples last week as Zac and Josh both were given the privilege to lead people to the Lord.
Praise God that you have the courage to follow the voice of the Lord in the midst of criticism. I for one stand with you brother and mentor. The truth (Christ) of your message (obedience) has set me free.
Terry,
Yes. The "tone" may just be in what some readers are hearing(and making up??). But when several people seem to be hearing the same thing, is it really the responsibility of the reader or of the communicator?
The reader.
of course--what did I expect? Well, you certainly don't seem to be lacking in confidence.
Of course I am confident. Reason this out in any tone you like. Scripture is found by some to be offensive and others to be redeeming. Is it the writer or the reader that makes the difference?
There is no way a writer can modify their writing to be pleasing to all people. Some readers will be offended. It has to be the reader.
Case in point - Bob's Blog - I find it refreshing, uplifting, and inspiring. I am not alone in this finding. Others - not so much. Same words - different readers.
So how do you take that?
PS. the tone of that "of course" was offensive to me?
Terry wrote "Scripture is found by some to be offensive and others to be redeeming. Is it the writer or the reader that makes the difference?"
In this case, I do believe the author is the one who can make a difference.
Gal. 5:22-26 says "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other."
The author can make a difference! The hearers have to get past a perceived tone in order to hear the message. We have to do that with Peters message, Jesus, and especially Paul among others like Moses, Abraham and others. What's up with such nonsense?
In my sermons over the years, some received it, others did not. Some loved it others did not. Unless you want to be a pansy writer you'll never appeal to the multitudes. Even Jesus stirred the religious community at odds with him over the tone and the message.
Once in a while I threw in a love me guys and gals sermon. Stepped on no toes, just made everyone feel good. By the way there was no life transformation on those days. Everyone feels good because everyone is good. BLAH!
Some people need to just grow up! I say that because I love the Body of Christ and in a Spirit of love, joy, peace,patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness and gentleness and even self control. You should be glad I exercised self control. I actually help her back.
Serious times demand a serious response. Time for a wake-up call. Time for action. Time to become the Church instead of just attending it.
Get past the tone and let's start debating the meat of the message, if you can.
By the way, I do not believe Jesus would address these issues with gentleness. He would clean out those who profess Him but do not possess Him.
When judgment falls, It won't be nice.
Leaders with apostolic and prophetic gifting are always attacked for their tone and especially for not be NICE in what they say and how they say it.
The world is a tough place - maybe we should all grow up a bit.
ok ok. we get it. nevermind
Matt, I didn't say I would not try harder. I am listening , but the truth applies to all of us and not just some of the truth.
Remember, the tone is intentional for reasons I need not share here. I am searching for some tell it like it is leaders who may be interested in taking the drastic step out of the old and in to a new fresh way making disciples without all the distractions and clutter.
Was it the "grow up" comment that got you? That is if anything got you. Or was it something else I said in a certain way?
Mum in law is wise and I still take to heart her wise words referencing how I speak about the church, the place. So I will be careful in how I speak about the church so as to not be dividing or being misunderstood in my passion.
Remember you cannot speak about the church in America without someone getting defensive or offensive.
Remember this old guy has some first hand experiences of the deficiencies in the American Church. These deficiencies could become victories if we all want to see them become that.
By the way I get to see my MUM in LAW today. We'll have more to talk about, I'm sure.
Oh to be nailed by Neil Cole and Mum 2. in the same letter. Anyone ever been in the jam I'm in?
What a sad, dark and lonely place. :)
You know I posted her comments and I am very much enjoying this one. I'm ornery and I love to express it occasionally.
This whole "tone" discussion is one that will never be resolved. Mostly because we're talking about totally different things.
You cannot convict someone of their "wrong" if they don't think they're wrong -- whether that person is the reader or the writer. But it is incumbent upon the writer to do all he or she can to get his message heard and to craft his message in such a way that those who read it will not only read the words, but the heart behind them.
By the way, you all keep saying that Jesus would not talk nice to the church of today. First of all, that's presumptious, to say the least. Jesus certainly, at times, spoke kindly to people he was trying to change. Of course, he also spoke harshly. Both are documented.
Secondly, it always bothers me when you (any of you) compare yourselves to Jesus. You're not Jesus. Jesus can speak harshly because he has the full authority and knowledge of God behind Him.
None of us can, because we don't. And we can't. We can understand bits and pieces. Flashes here and there. We see, as one of my favorite Scriptural phrases puts it, "through a glass darkly." But none of us can claim to understand the full breadth of God's knowledge and will. It is BEYOND us.
So, in the interim (until THAT DAY) we can only do that which we believe God calls us to do and in the ways we believe He calls us to do it.
By the way, as Matt suggested, it is not a "perceived tone" when several people notice and comment on the same thing. If a lot of people read my friends' column and they all find it humorous, then it is humorous. Even if she did not intend that column to be humorous.
Perception IS reality, especially for a writer, and especially if that writer is trying to convince or convict others to broaden their thinking. Perception isn't pulled blindly out of the air. It is based on years, decades, of human observation.
We perceive that a man walking into a bank with his hands in his pockets and his stockingcap over his head is a bank robber -- maybe he's not. Maybe his hands are cold and he's trying to cover up an awful facial deformity. But the bank manager would have to make assumptions based on his perception.
Same here.
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Good thoughts Mike. You're very right about none of us being Jesus thus not having the same authority to speak out harshly against one another. What we are told to do over and over again in the scripture is to bear with one another in love and patience, give correction gently, and spur one another on to good works.
I guess I've grown weary of these discussions (not just on here but other places as well) because they seem to be more focused on pointing out problems than on encouraging one another toward solutions.
The Lord has convicted me in recent weeks that I've spent too much time cursing the darkness (often times my own biased declarations of darkness) when I should be spending my time lighting candles.
Me too, Bobert. Me too.
Which is why I, like one of your other posters, often take breaks from all blogs. They can often be interesting, fascinating, challenging stuff -- but they can often be just "stuff" that pulls down my attitude and openness. And I don't like either.
Important note: That's not a comment about this blog in particular, but about all blogs in general.
I'm not Jesus nor did I ever compare myself to Him. I just pointed out some of the life experiences of Jesus.
Bill we don't need more candle lighters, we need to storm the gates of hell. It's time to go into battle and those kum-bah-yah days must end.
How has encouraging one another toward solution ever helped expand the kingdom. I know it has, rather slowly at times. The pew people don't even see the problems and when they do they get uncomfortable and even defensive. We just like things the way they are.
By the way, don't accuse me of speaking to a person harshly, I do speak against a dying infective institution harshly. I rarely see anyone defending themselves, what they defend is the institution that makes them safe and comfortable.
This is what I see Mike and Bill defending. WHY? You send a message that encouraged much of the same or is this not true? If is not true, give us some examples.
They hated the prophets. Why? They also hate those with prophetic giftings. Why?
Your niceness and lubby dubby is driving me nuts, so I'm trying to be nicer in how I say things. It's hard not to pull a Dr. Phil on you. And Dr. Phil is a straight shooting not trying to be a nice presenter. But his show is a going thing and people are turning from their sin. It works your way and it is working Dr. Phil's way. There are those who relate to your approach and then there are others who need my kind of approach. There is proof in the pudding. I deal with the Dr. Phil lovers and you can deal with the Robert Schuller types. Now I've solved the problem. Both ways can work. Not just my way and certainly not just yours. I get the prize for finding the solution.
Mike, if writing is your gift, don't tell me how to write, I don't have your gift. I cannot write like you. Don't want to.
Mike I do have authority to speak out truth, not as Jesus but as Jesus working through me and His people through the proof text in the Word of God.
You can be you, the way God wired you. And I can be me the way God wired me.
You did however personally attack me for being to harsh when some need me to be harsh, That is unfair in our diversity of gifting and wiring by God. Do you want those who respond to lubby dubby types to be the only ones we reach?
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"Bill we don't need more candle lighters, we need to storm the gates of hell. It's time to go into battle and those kum-bah-yah days must end."
Bob, that's quite audacious to say that God's conviction in the life of a person is invalid.
I think Jesus called it something like being "the light of the world."
(sigh)
Yet another point violently missed.
Never mind.
"How has encouraging one another toward solution ever helped expand the kingdom."
Bob...I know you don't mean this. Are you really suggesting that we should just spend all of our time sitting around bitching (pardon) about what's wrong instead of learning together HOW to be more effective and encouraging one another in that way????
Again, I believe in what you're doing in the midwest. And I would absolutely lOVE to come here and read about real life examples and stories, and exortation about how to be Great Commission effective.
It just seems like there's so much energy spent on talking about how much is wrong and how spiritually lazy and Great Commission negligent everyone is...and so little time encouraging us how to follow your own personal and church's example.
But hey...this is your blog, not mine. I'm just one friend, brother, and reader offering feedback as to why I'm finding it more and more difficult to stop by and walk away with something that will make me more effective at making disciples.
The Planter wrote (ME IN ALL CAPS, I'M NOT SCREAMING JUST A TYPE DIFFERENTIAL):
Mike, if writing is your gift, don't tell me how to write, I don't have your gift. I cannot write like you. Don't want to. DON'T THINK I DID TELL YOU HOW TO WRITE. WHAT I SAID IS THAT IT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE WRITER (ANYONE) TO MAKE HIS OR HER POINT CLEAR AND NOT LET IT BE MUDDLED BY A PERCEIVED TONE. BECAUSE A PERCEIVED TONE WILL OBFUSCATE THE MESSAGE.
Mike I do have authority to speak out truth, not as Jesus but as Jesus working through me and His people through the proof text in the Word of God. NOT SURE I QUITE UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING HERE. CAN YOU CLARIFY?
You can be you, the way God wired you. And I can be me the way God wired me. ABSOLUTELY AND I HAVE STEADFASTLY SUPPORTED AND LOVED YOU THE WAY YOU ARE. NOT TRYING TO CHANGE YOU, THAT'S NOT MY JOB. I WAS JUST TRYING TO HELP YOU SEE HOW PERCEPTION WAS CLOUDING YOUR ABILITY TO GET YOUR MESSAGE ACROSS. LOOK BACK THROUGH YOUR BLOG -- HOW MANY TIMES HAVE I SAID HOW MUCH I LOVE AND APPRECIATE YOU? HOW MANY TIMES HAVE I SAID I'M GLAD YOU'RE THE WAY YOU ARE? I WANT YOUR MESSAGE TO GET ACROSS. IT WON'T, OR IT WON'T AS WELL AS IT COULD, IF IT IS BEING PERCEIVED WRONGLY.
You did however personally attack me for being to harsh when some need me to be harsh, That is unfair in our diversity of gifting and wiring by God. DID I? IF SO, I AM SORRY. I DON'T RECALL PERSONALLY ATTACKING YOU. BUT I DO HUMBLY APOLOGIZE FOR DOING SO. IT WAS NOT MY INTENTION -- THAT'S A PERCEPTION PROBLEM I HAVE TO DEAL WITH. WE ALL ARE PERCEIVED IN MANY DIFFERENT WAYS -- SOME CORRECTLY, SOME NOT. YOU NEED TO WORK ON ADDRESSING YOURS AND I NEED TO WORK ON ADDRESSING MINE.
This is getting outrageously ridiculous or is it fun?
So sorry you feel this way, Bill.
Strong words...
I'm sad!
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Wounds of a friend, brother.
It wasn't always this way. A year ago I drew great encouragment from your thoughts here and even seriously considered coming to join you. It seems, however, that you've come under the influence of a person (or persons) who are attempting to lead more out of an unhealthy reaction to past hurts rather than out of a strong, clear annointing of God.
I believe so much in what you're doing. But looking from the outside in, it seems to be getting more and more lost in a toxic fog.
I too am sad.
Bill, you are sounding more the dysfunctional church even with all of her judgments (without speaking to me personally) but rather, to broadcast your ill founded perceptions for all the world to read, for which I am thankful. This is a teachable moment on how the church cares for brothers and sisters who seem to be drifting in their apinion. As if to say, I'm right and you are sick.
What you do not know because you have not spoken with me is that our movement is totally led by God's Spirit. Terry and neither do I have any pain birthing going on. I do have some disgust but that's born out of years of experience and renewal in my very recent and renewed empowering of God's Spirit. It does me and the church a disservice when we or others assume and then speak out that we are not led fully by God's Spirit.
This Disciple Driven movement is a fulfillment of the Great Commission as we are open and led fully by and with the holy Spirit.
What is it you really don't like. Me, Terry, our candid and direct truth giving, our willingness to leave the tradition you may love, our method, my blog my content or my willingness to be transparent and speak out against deficiencies in the church or what?
Much of what I say and do here is birthed out of a prophetic and apostolic (Ephesians) gifting. And I will keep on living through that gifting to see change in America and also to see unfulfilled leaders in America want to check the foundational New Testament out and may even join with what we are doing.
Without getting to personal, do you have an axe to grind? I know I do and it is directed toward our ineffectiveness at making disciple in America.
I Love what you do, what you write, but I am not pleased with the road this relationship is taking.
As brothers, let's step up and do what needs to be done.
Hey Bob. I'll respond to some of your statements here.
"What is it you really don't like. Me, Terry, our candid and direct truth giving, our willingness to leave the tradition you may love, our method, my blog my content or my willingness to be transparent and speak out against deficiencies in the church or what?"
I like you a great deal Bob, (what little I know of you since we've never really interacted beyond this space). I like your heart. I am inspired by your faith to step out and lead this movement as you have. I love your vision and believe in it fully. I am inspired at how you have, with resolute faith, weathered so many bizarre difficulties this past year. I mean...come on...a rotting elbow!
I don't know Terry. The only thing I know about him is through blogging (which is certainly fertil soil for misunderstanding). I can say that my only experience with his posts stirs a visceral internal response of concern that the beautiful thing you are pursuing could be short-circuited by attitudes, jabs, and responses that cause unnecessary hurt to people who don't deserve to be hurt. However, I will openly confess that I know my perceptions could be way off base.
I applaud your willingness to "leave the tradition I may love" and would respond loudly and clearly that I do not love the tradition you are leaving. I too have been in the process of leaving it for 2+ years now. It is a withering vine becoming less and less fruitful all the time. It is a vine that I am no longer interested in tending...especially when there are fresh, new shoots emerging from the soil that are full of life and promise. However, I believe that though the old vine is withering, there are still multitudes desparately trying to draw life from it. I believe we have to be careful not to destroy the hearts, spirits, and hopes of those who haven't yet become aware of the new life-giving vines emerging around them.
I applaud your courage in speaking out against deficiencies in the institutional church. I think it is needed. I was reading Dallas Willard's "Divine Conspiracy" over the weekend and there is a chapter on the "community of love" or something like that. He speaks about judgment, correction, condemnation, etc. He makes the point that when we speak out against things that we perceive as being grievous to Christ, his mission, his bride, our speaking out should always be done with the aim of restoration, never condemnation.
I'll say honestly that a great deal of what I have read here lately has sounded more like condemnation than restoration. It's almost sound as if you're wishing we could just hurry up and kill off the institutional church and drag its corpse out our way. I come away from those posts & comments wondering how much better it might be to lead those in the institution into a place of Great Commission restoration instead of just repeatedly jabbing them until they bleed to death. Again, my perception may be wrong. And if it is, please accept my apology.
I hope you will keep right on living out of your apostolic and prophetic gifting. We all need it. I just hope that your heart will always be tender enough to lovingly lead people into the better way. My prayer for both of us is that our hearts will both always remain tender enough to acknowledge that we may be right, we may be wrong, and that our hearts will always be in need of further renovation by the Holy Spirit.
I love you, Bill. Your heart and message both inspire me. We are on the same path.
I know allot about bleeding and I don't want to bludgeon her (the dying or withering vine) to death. Nor do I want to come across like I want to throw her away. As long as she remains connected to the vine of Jesus no one has the right to take the place of Jesus in discarding any part of the vine.
Bill, I appreciate your friendship and truly do pray you will hang with me. We both hunger for more. It's the more that remains a mystery at times.
My heart is truly more tender than I come across. I intentionally drive hard here. I sure wish you knew how compassionate I am for the lost, dying and hurting. We both share that commonality.
I'll share more of our story as the story unfolds. It will be one of many stories as God pours out His Spirit in these desperate days.
You can pray for me, my infection in my right elbow is back with a fury. I thought this was over after 4 weeks of antibiotics but apparently I never got over the first or I have a new something. Without seeing the doctor it is more than evident that I have infection. I'll save you the gory details. I had to rush home today in order to see the doctor in morning.
Oh by the way, I should thank Mom 2 for an excellent blog post (which I posted). Isn't she just the best? After all these years she still loves enough to speak from her heart.
Father, we pray your love and healing power over Bob as he fights off this infection. We know that You are the Great Healer and that You know the plans You have for Bob and his life.
We love him, Lord, and wish increased strength and fortitude for the battles he faces -- physical, mental, and spiritual. His can be a draining work, Lord. Will you give Bobert the strength he needs today? We ask that You hold him in Your arms, always, and that you be his comfort, his strength, his inspiration, and his song.
Amen.
Bob,
I do love you bro. And I will hang with you. You can count on that! Just don't ever touch me with your elbow!
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