I still find...
I still find myself in systems of control who love to measure the wrong things. Today I was asked to defend my work here in St. Louis. I cannot defend her with measures most are looking for. Ours in St. Louis is a work of disciple-making. It is hard work. It is total 24/7 commitment top the disciple. Those who lead people to Christ must also lead them into the water of baptism, they must lead them into the steps of freedom from generational sin and bondage and addictions, they must lead them to a Holy Spirit baptism and then to discover their gifts for ministry and most importantly they must lead them to reproduce and know that it is there responsibility to personally make disciples who must also make disciples.
Why must I have to defend this work? I cannot say we have 3000 in worship on Sunday.I cannot say we have a tremendous worship band. I cannot say we have started 5 churches when we only started three. I cannot say we have a ministry for every occasion or felt need. I cannot say we have a large budget and multi-million dollar facilities. I cannot say what they want to hear. We are just engaging an army of disciple multipliers who are determined to save America for Christ.
Why do I find myself being asked to defend this work?
posted by Bob Carder @ 11:18 PM
18 comments
18 Comments:
Bob
Those who support your work financially have a right and a duty to know how the money was used. Don't you expect the same when you give, some of the money GOD has entrusted you with, to support the effort of other Christians?
Give them an honest appraisal of what GOD is accomplishing thru your ministry. Fretting about it accomplishes nothing but make you upset. If you can't live with this don't accept their support.
Are you sure their requests are unreasonable?
Anonymous,
Do those who support this work financially have a "right and a duty to know how the money was used?" Are you sure? I know many want to... but is it a true "right?"
Is it your prerogative to, when God gives you direction to support a ministry, attach strings to it or is that God's job? I agree with good stewardship, however, if God has led you to support something, it is not your job to justify the ministry of it in any way, it is your job to obey the Lord and do what He says while knowing He has it under control or else He wouldn't be leading you to support it, am I right? If the Lord prompts you to stop giving, then you should also do that, but I do not ever think it is in your "right" to attach strings to the Lord's leading as if you own your own resources.
G.N.
I have no problem giving where GOD directs. The problem that I have is being sure that it is really GOD directing me. I have too many times seen Christians giving to causes that afterwards turned out to be obviously not of GOD. I want to be sure that it is the still small voice of GOD directing me and not my emotions being manipulated or something else deceiving me.
When I am convinced it is GOD I will do what ever HE says.
Having a report from the individual or organization that I am giving GOD's money to helps me to confirm that I am really following the direction of GOD.
I don't receive audible instructions from GOD nor emails.
I don't think that counts are the most important results. Changed lives are. The bible does record counts however. They are not intrinsically bad.
When an individual makes such a fuss over being controlled, it makes me wonder why. Most of us are accountable to others and I don't call that control. Not being accountable to others make it to easy to be mistaken in our thoughts and beliefs. It is good when we are made to justify our beliefs and positions.
There is a difference from presenting the facts and defending the results.
When I was in the old system of counting buildings, budgets and butts in pews it was easy. Counting those things are easy.
In our Disciple Driven Church it is a different story. We don't count the things that matter in the traditional church, attendance, offerings, programs, buildings. Our measure is completely different. We believe Jesus is concerned more about those who don't show up than those who do and we believe we must celebrate what Jesus does in the streets in the lives Jesus touches through us.
Anon, you are right and it is my position. If a donor asks questions they should get answers. And they do. The issue here is much deeper than that. It is political.
Clearly the issue here is not about money or information! Believe me when I say that.
I give to many ministries. I receive reports from ALL of those ministries without asking for them.
I don't think I have ever, once, said "you know, why don't you do this?" or "Why aren't you doing that?" Oversight of the ministries I support is not my responsibility.
However, if I did NOT get reports then I would feel the ministry was not being accountable for God's money, which I am funneling to them. At that point, I might ask, "Ummm...what are you doing over there at XYZ Ministry? Still doing God's work? Let me know."
That's my stewardship responsibility. If I supported a ministry AND served on its board, that would, of course, be different. But we're not talking about that, I don't think.
This is what I do.
Bob, I guess all you can really do is point to what you said you were going to do in the beginning. If you are following through with the specific steps you said you'd take no one should have a disagreement with you. You can't be held responsible for God's part -- only your part. Surely, your supporters understand that. If not, you and they need to sit down and establish the criteria by which you will be evaluated or held accountable. That criteria should specify what you will and can do, not the fruit that the Lord will bring out of it.
Thanks Mike. You have been supporting us from the beginning and you receive full accounting and regular reports. We have nothing to hide and I do cringe at the subtle accusation that we do. Thanks for clearing this up. Mike, you know I am upfront and still doing what I always have, what I was sent here by God to do.
ANONYMOUS - you missed my point. I am sorry you see a rat in the wood pile when in fact I'm one of the most upfront and open people you will ever meet. I was asked to report politically when in fact what we are doing here is much different than what is traditionally being done anywhere in America. So when someone asks for certain things like buildings, butts, better programs and budgets we have little to offer. We count things like mentioned in the original post. Everyday we see something new and fresh the somethings that don't count in the American Church.
And to Joel, what an encouragement you are. My denominational friends may never understand the joy and levels of deep transformation as I am now experiencing in my my life an din the lives of others.
I refuse to go back to the broken down system of little returns.
We are involved in a Reformation of America. This is serious stuff. I've paid -am paying and will pay the price for what I hold firmly too.
BY THE WAY - I don't need to defend God do I?
hmmm anonymous, why did you automatically assume financial accounting? Bob did not even mention that in his blog. Results are too often seen in terms of financial "how much am I getting for my buck" this is worldly wisdom. "what is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight" Yes be good stewards but I don't think that is what this is about. It is about seeing with spiritual eyes. It is about not measuring the spiritual by the natural. correct?
martilou
What would you say if I told you that I was one of those evil controlling individuals that Bob is complaining about?
If that is true then you should identify yourself and then resign your position. If you are an authority over Bob and come here annonymously saying the things you have said in the way you have said them - you disgust me.
If you are leading and then say "The problem that I have is being sure that it is really GOD directing me"
Why should you be followed?
My point is don't you think the people over Bob can read his blog.
Going back to the question directed toward me "what would you say if I told you I was one of those evil controling individuals that Bob is complaining about"
First I would say that the conversation makes more sense knowing that. Second I would say I do not believe you are an evil controling individual. I believe you are a godly man seeking to do your best to serve Jesus just as Bob is. That's the problem you see--We all live in this tension of change. It doesn't make any of us evil --the tension creates the opportunity to evaluate, to get rid of anything that "entangles" forces us to compare our priorities to Jesus' priorities. I am not condemning anyone one, just trying to sort through all this myself. How do we stay accountable and good stewards as we make the changes the Spirit calls us to make? I hate the questions and the tension but I long to be apart of a spiritual revolution in America. U don't want to miss it because I didn't struggle with the questions and tension. I hope we can keep the discussion going without judgement and without offense!
Martilou
I am not anyone in authority over Bob nor did I say that I was. I don't even know who he reports to. I just wanted to get his attention and cause him to think about what he is doing.
Complaining about someone in authority over you is very unwise. Within a Christian organization that person is at the very least in that position by the permissive will of GOD. I don't know the details of what is going on nor do I need to. He may be right that what they are asking is unreasonable and inappropriate. But, as long as he reports to them he needs to treat them respectfully. I feel that is what GOD would want him to do. What I feel that he should do is to have a civil discussion with them as to what he feels is appropriate and what is not appropriate.
I am aware of what you and Bob are trying to do and I applaud you for it. I feel that it is a movement approved of GOD and initiated by GOD. It has been very successful in Africa and I feel can be successful in the USA.
Even though you are sold on this method of reaching people for Christ you should not limit GOD from using other methods to reach people.
I know that there are many problems in the traditional church. Some of them may very well have no true believers in them at all. There are however churches that are effective in reaching others for Jesus and helping Christians to grow in their faith.
None of us are without fault and should be very cautious in our condemnation of others. Especially other Christians.
The 'Great Commission' is something that no Christian should treat lightly and I agree that it does apply to all of us. I feel that some of us are called to do evangelism an a full time basis and others have different callings for the majority of our time. Some are gifted is helping Christians to mature in the faith.
We need to correct other Christians when it is appropriate. But, it needs to be done with kindness and gentleness. Making someone angry will never win them to your point of view. Nor will it draw them back to the Kingdom if that is the need.
Before I continue, I will wait for your response.
I am not sure I have a response. You seem to have read more into Bob's comments than I did. I did not hear a complaining spirit or disrespect for authority--but a frustration resulting from how to deal with old wineskins that still have a place and new wineskins that are finding their place. However you may know more than me about the situation--so I will bow out. I would be interested in your identity since you seem to know who I am. I do agree with most of what you are saying but i also agree with most of what Bob was saying. I enjoy blog conversations that cause me to think new thoughts and help me evaluate--this one I believe has reached its goals. God Bless.
This comment has been removed by the author.
Martilou said, hmmm anonymous, why did you automatically assume financial accounting? Bob did not even mention that in his blog. Results are too often seen in terms of financial "how much am I getting for my buck" this is worldly wisdom. "what is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight" Yes be good stewards but I don't think that is what this is about. It is about seeing with spiritual eyes. It is about not measuring the spiritual by the natural. correct?
THE PLANTER: YOU ARE CORRECT!
I wish I would have thought to write this. You said it well. I have nothing more to say in this comment section.
Anony, why do you insist on being an anony?
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