In your mind...
In your mind was Constantine a Hero or a Zero for the cause and spread of Christianity?
posted by Bob Carder @ 9:55 PM
18 comments
Sunday, August 31, 2008
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18 Comments:
i'm willing to open my mind. Can you direct me to some references that back up what you are saying? show me some of the stuff you've got...
i've always heard and believed that what Constantine did for the Church was great. Now I'm hearing this. I would like to look into it deeper..it sounds good.
And another thought: if this is true that he never really accepted Christ personally, why don't I hear about it from the religion profs here at IWU? Surely Bud Bence would know about this? Why wouldn't he share some insight about who Constantine really was as you say he was?
and thanks for opening up this new discussion, a carry-over from the other. I didn't want to get into all of it, but now I really want to. Thanks!
I'm not sure it matters at all whether he's a hero or a zero (or more likely, something in between) IN MY MIND.
If he's a zero, the conversation is just a blame-laying game. Why waste effort blaming Constantine instead of fixing the problem?
If he's a hero, the conversation is moot.
If he's inbetween, a sinner saved by grace like all of us who stumbled and fell perhaps a time or two...it still doesn't solve the problems the American church is facing.
Constantine and his goods or bads is a snooze-inducing thread to me. Don't care, never will.
He was a snake and a fraud. He tricked the Christians into fighting with that made up vision he had of a cross. He was a loser of the highest order.
Ehret's right, it's largely unimportant. But if we're going to talk about him, let's at least acknowledge the damage he did.
All of the "zero" proponents keep saying these things, but not backing them up. Again, I don't really think it matters this much, but as you say, if we're going to talk about him, and if you want his damaged 'recognized,' then stop playing 'name it, claim it' with what he did and SHOW US.
Bobert lives in the Show Me state ... so...??
If I missed a previous post in another thread with this info, please forgive. I can't read them all. :)
the only problem with these arguements is that both sides of the arguements will look at the same event (Constantine institutionalizing the church) and see it doing opposite things. and both sides, using the same evidence to support their opposite claims, are so sure that what they have meanse what they think it means that no one is willing to listen. so maybe if everyone stopped acting like they knew what they were talking about, and looked at the event, without any pre-assumptions, in light of SCRIPTURE instead of history, we would get somewhere. I capitalize Scripture here because history is told by man and Scripture is God-breathed and the only authoritative standard for truth
During the time of Constantine, Chrisitianity went from being a movement of people following there leader (Jesus) to a State Religion.
The Questions becomes then how does being a state religion affect such a movement of God? The Romans had tried to get rid of Christianinty becausee they feared the power it had--they failed. The next best thing was to control it which is what State Religion status tends to do. (although history tells us this was not Constantine's motive) Good things happened like persecution was reduced--all though constantine continued to persecute those sects of Christianity that believed differently from his sect. Some doctrinal unity occurred. The spread of Christianity increased. However the difference of opinion lies here in whether mixing church and state is healthy for the church. Some of the down sides were: an organism became an organization, unity was controled by the State, the structures became more inportant than the relationships and Constantine governed the church for political purposes as well as spiritual purpose so that the natural mixed with the spiritual and the light mixed with the dark.
I personally think that the weaknesses in the American church trickle down from this mixing of light and dark, natural and spiritual. It has been so mixed together I believe we do not always distinguish natural from spiritual and light from dark. We also have the tendency not only to make the structure more important than the relationships (discipleing) but to actually make the structure "The Church" instead of the people of God.
These are all pretty simplistic understandings of history. Constantine didn't institutionalize the church. That happened when the church began regular meeting times with recognized leadership. IOW, it was institutionalized in the pages of the NT.
Constantine legalized the church (though it had been legal during previous times) and gave it broad recognition. He's neither a hero nor a zero. He's a politician doing what politicians do. I seriously don't understand the obsession with him in the church deconstructionist circles.
The church's problems today don't stem from being an institution. Rather, they come from leaders who lost the vision for disciple-making. Simply getting rid of the institution will not result in disciple-making. In fact, it will make it even less likely to happen.
The institutions today need to change and refocus and in the future they may look nothing like the institutions we currently have.
That's why all the church bashing, IMO, is at best naive and at worst destructive. Imagine using all this negative energy to actually make disciples!
I agree that getting rid of the institution will not result in disciple making. However I am not so sure about "making it less likely to happen" I have been a maker of disciples for the past 20 years. I recently have come out of the institutional church structure and have found that making disciples is more effective and more likely to happen
In my experience, I have found that the institutional church (program driven) pervents disciple-making in that it calls disciples to bring their disciples to a service that has expectations of perfectionism and consumerism that are an opposite lifestyle from what I discipling teaches them. It expects them to use much of their free time in programs rather than living incarnationally in the world. Are all institutional churches like this--no of course not. Some are program driven some are purpose driven a few are even disciple driven. Some are controling and authoritarian others have a Biblical leadership that keeps Christ as head. Change is difficult. I want to be a reformer not a basher so feel free to let me know when I slip into church bashing
Church bashing is often claimed but rarely supported. I have never seen this blog bash "the Church". The problem is a misconception of what the "church/Church" really is.
Doesn't matter how many you get to show up for your "worship" service - many of them and that event are not the church.
The church is the people indwelt by the Holy Spirit - has anyone seen them bashed here.
I blame Constantine for this whole misconseption of the identity of the church.
We're giving too much power to the programs - either for or against. If you yourself know what God is calling you to do, then do it. Seek to do it in a spirit of humility and service.
As long as we meet together and recognize people as our leaders there will be an institutional church. Let's focus on the spiritual quality and the multiplying of partners in ministry rather than condemning everyone else.
I'm still waiting for some actual discussion on how to make disciples on this site.
FWIW, I've been through Keystone more times than I can remember and I'm currently coaching about 10 leaders - most in conventional churches including high church Anglican. We're also seeing a growing, multiplying discipleship based movement that is spreading cross-culturally right here in Nicosia. And one of the keys to the success is loving local churches and coming alongside them to serve them.
BTW, the Church is made up of churches (unless of course by 'church' you mean building).
This whole Constantine issue is interesting. I do know that Constantine was likely not a Christ follower. He made Christianity the official state religion for political reasons. And yes, he was a great political leader. But he wasn't good for Christianity. Christianity was fine without Him. She was an out of control movement before Him.
Many denominations embrace the state religion part as a good thing for Christianity but it caused an out of control movement to become institutional for lack of a better descriptor.
honest2blog, as you know, in the Anglican Church -Constantine must be a hero. I know you are training Anglicans and others in keystone principles and I am aware that you are are coaching and have been to keystone many times. What works in your neck of the woods is clearly not free flowing here.
For Keystone out of control, disciple making movements, totally led,empowered and released by the Holy Spirit to work it must happen in America outside of denominational, district and pastoral control. It is a released work.
Remember we are speaking about America and in America we are getting nothing but resistance when speaking of this. Pastors who have tried to add components of keystone within existing power structures have largely failed with none or minor success. Pastors who have embraced keystone in existing structures have lost people who lover the comfort of just going to church or have been run out of town.
The institutional systems of the American Church are systems that control out this released Holy Spirit work.
Honest2Blog: Are you teaching a modified keystone package or are you in an environment that is conducive to out of control Holy Spirit work. Which is it or did I miss something?
What is keystone? Keystone training was brought to American by Richard Greene a former missionary to Africa where hundreds of thousands of churches have and are being birthed through Holy Spirit release and Great Commission supremacy. Richard has shown us how the simplistic Jesus message of redemption and Holy Spirit power can fuel disciples who make disciples.
The Planter here has been busy trying to contextualize keystone principles for America. What some have said cannot happen is happening right before my eyes as she is being birthed in a new wineskin that allows for the necessary stretching new wine requires.
LIke any human being in history, Constantine is a mix of good and bad.
If anyone tells you he was all hero, then they are distorting history.
If anyone tells you he was all zero, then they too are distorting history.
Phil, I cannot say why you never heard arguments on both sides. A few minutes of research could help a lot though. Here is a short excerpt from "Who's Who in Christian History". A readily available publication gives both sides of the story folks are talking about.
"Constantine is most remembered for his religious policies. The nature of his own religious beliefs has been disputed. From the first he was tolerant of Christians in his own realm. His preference for Christianity was demonstrated just before the battle at the Mulvian Bridge. According to one account, in a dream before the battle Constantine saw a vision of a monogram composed of the first two Greek letters of the name of “Christ.” The next day he had his soldiers inscribe that monogram on their shields. Another story says that while marching one day he and his army saw the image of a cross appear before the sun with the words, “In this sign conquer.” During the winter of 312 and 313, he wrote to an officer in North Africa instructing him to supply money to the bishop of Carthage in order to pay expenses of the clergy. When he and Licinius met in Milan in 313, they issued an edict granting all persons the freedom to follow whichever religion they wished. His Christian sentiments also resulted in laws allowing bishops to decide civil lawsuits, banning any branding on the face (because it marred the image of God), closing law courts and workshops on Sunday, and banning gladiatorial games. Though he favored Christianity, Constantine was also tolerant of paganism and, as late as 324, pagan themes were engraved on his coins. With Christians such a minority in the empire, Constantine felt he could not risk offending the pagan majority.
Constantine took an active role in church controversies. When Caecilian was challenged as bishop of Carthage (313) by the Donatists (separatists in the African church), Constantine instructed the bishops of Rome to summon a commission to hear the case. Since the Donatists were not content with the results of that commission, Constantine himself eventually heard the case, and in 316 he declared Caecilian to be the rightful bishop. Constantine also summoned the Council of Nicea in 325, which ruled against Arianism (a heresy that denied that Christ as the Son of God was coeternal with the Father). It was the emperor’s edict which gave legal force to the Nicean decision.
One serious scandal marred Constantine’s reign. In 326 he had his son Crispus and his own wife, Faustus, executed on charges of adultery. Constantine was succeeded by his three other sons (Constans, Constantius, Constantine II), after being baptized a Christian on his deathbed (according to legend).
J. D. Douglas, Philip Wesley Comfort and Donald Mitchell, Who's Who in Christian History, Illustrated lining papers. (Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House, 1997, c1992)."
Again, most history books I have read share the good and bad, and if folks choose to gloss over the good or gloss over the bad, then that is their choice.
Even if Constantine's motives were political, I think I am glad he banned the Gladiator games where thousands of Christians were tortured and died.
"Meanwhile Maxentius mercilessly persecuted his Christian subjects. “He cut open pregnant women,” Eusebius writes, “and again inspected the bowels of newborn infants.” His father Maximianus had carried out even crueler persecutions in the East. Pagan priests returned to their temples as heathen worship was revived and given into the hands of corrupt lackeys and court favorites. Stories are told of Christians burned at the stake, maimed, crucified, subjected to eye-gouging and sent off to forced labor in the salt and copper mines. Then the persecution waned, only to be followed by new horrors once Maximianus’ second persecution began around 308. Christian corpses were left lying in the streets for the dogs and vultures. “Some said that limbs and masses of flesh and parts of entrails were to be seen even within the gates.”
The Evangelical Theological Society, Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society Volume 22, 22:162-163 (The Evangelical Theological Society, 1979; 2002)."
Some obviously think Constantine is evil and a total Zero for not continuing this practice of killing Christians, but I have to give Constantine some props for this move.
His move to allow a freedom of religion was good.
"As recorded by Eusebius, this edict decreed that Christians and non-Christians alike be allowed and even obligated to preserve and uphold their own faiths and assemblies. All would be free to practice the religion of their choice in piety and reverence toward God. Anyone so desiring might publicly convert to Christianity. Those Christian places of worship destroyed or appropriated during times of persecution were to be restored, and confiscated Christian property was to be returned or indemnified. Historically this appears to have been the first official statement of religion as the personal affair of the individual, free from outside control. Writes Uhlhorn: “The edict of Milan marks the great moment when the truth obtained recognition, that no one could be forced into a religion, because forced religion ceases to be religion at all.”
The Evangelical Theological Society, Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society Volume 22, 22:163-164 (The Evangelical Theological Society, 1979; 2002)."
Although this too is a mixed bag, but so what. the Bible I read says that "all have sinned and fall short of God's glory" so the fact that Constantine did bad stuff just make him human.
Again, the short of it is this. Other than the Devil there is no absolute Evil and other than God, there is no absolute good. Ideologues and the ignorant see history as black and white and that serves no good end. But everyone reading and writing will have to decide what kind of historian they want to be....
Quick notes:
1. The Anglican church does NOT treat Constantine as a hero or a zero. Generally, they know history too well to do that.
2. The reason the Church became largely nominal was not because Constantine legalized Christianity, but because Christians were no longer making disciples.
3. The measure of success is not 'what works' but what is obedient. My 'neck of the woods' is a global neck that touches every continent. I'm working with American pastors, too.
4. If you get nothing but resistence when speaking about this, consider changing your tone of voice. I receive regular emails from pastors eager to learn how to make disciples.
5.Can you give examples of pastors who were run out of town for making disciples? Or were they run out of town for criticizing what everyone else is doing? I don't know ... I'm just asking.
6. We're doing full-blown Keystone here and around the world. Nothing modified or watered down.
7. Telling God that he can't work in denominations probably isn't a good idea. I think he'll most likely do what he wants. :-)
8. If someone gets 'kicked out' of a church because they are actually making disciples, then so be it. But Christians can sometimes offend people for reasons that have nothing to do with the gospel.
Gotta run!
OpenID honest2blog said...
Quick notes:
1. The Anglican church does NOT treat Constantine as a hero or a zero. Generally, they know history too well to do that.
The Planter replies: This is good.
However, he caused great harm to the flow of Christianity when she became an organized hierarchy.
2. The reason the Church became largely nominal was not because Constantine legalized Christianity, but because Christians were no longer making disciples.
The Planter replies: They ceased to make disciples because hierarchy became the focus of the leaders. You are right in principle but other things precipitated this lack of action. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
3. The measure of success is not 'what works' but what is obedient. My 'neck of the woods' is a global neck that touches every continent. I'm working with American pastors, too.
The Planter replies: Do you recall the Hagar and Sarah teaching? We are having success everywhere we go. In fact, a movement of disciples making disciples has been birthed in St. Louis, Indiana, Kansas, Texas and Washington. These are leaders we were privileged to train. I'm speaking of a movement of disciple makers who make the making of disciples the main thing - the result of Holy Spirit baptism and equipping.
4. If you get nothing but resistence when speaking about this, consider changing your tone of voice. I receive regular emails from pastors eager to learn how to make disciples.
ThePlanter replies: We are not getting nothing but resistence from everyone. Remember we funded and trained over 130 leaders so far this year in the keystone training. We are continuing with them in a coaching relationship. The institutional and attractional church resists us. You know that! People who are fearful resist us and what we are teaching.
We do not need large budgets, more butts, better programs, and bigger buildings to do what we do. This is threatening when the American Church is built on the above and now we prove these things are not needed. REMEMBER: we invite the lost to accept Jesus and then we invite them to gather with the Church.
5.Can you give examples of pastors who were run out of town for making disciples? Or were they run out of town for criticizing what everyone else is doing? I don't know ... I'm just asking.
The Planter responds: They tried to make the Church disciple driven with Great Commission supremacy. Many prefer the old attractional
"come and see - come and feed me' church. I have examples. If the church is sick and she is someone better be talking about it. Lots of people are talking about it, I just haven't written the book like they have.
6. We're doing full-blown Keystone here and around the world. Nothing modified or watered down.
The Planter replies: Are you teaching the baptism of the Holy Spirit? I'm puzzled! Keystone is a released work and it cannot be controlled with limiting structures. It's working for us outside the structures of control and not the other way around.
7. Telling God that he can't work in denominations probably isn't a good idea. I think he'll most likely do what he wants. :-)
The Planter responds: I didn't infer God couldn't do what He wanted. I was simply stating that in America He is not allowed (His Spirit is being quenched) because of our control and limiting structures. Our own denomination may give up the keystone blessing for not releasing her with her full blessing. But they will have to lift geographical boundaries to do it. We are working in 6 districts and without the blessing to do so. Come on Rick!
8. If someone gets 'kicked out' of a church because they are actually making disciples, then so be it. But Christians can sometimes offend people for reasons that have nothing to do with the gospel.
The Planter replies: "Amen!" I'm not for having three or four in the church make disciples and the rest come for the show. If they all won't do it, they don;t want me t be their pastor. The Great commission is everyone's personal responsibility, that's why a new movement is necessary. We insist that all Christ followers make disciples and disciples others. There may be differences however. That difference is measured exponentially and not with addition. Both are blessed by God, one has a greater reach. I'm opting for exponential disciple making results.
The tone of this blog is not a personal one of personally attacking others. If the dog is sick and throwing up all over the place it doesn't do him or the owner any good to ignore it. If the dog is sick, start admitting it and then get help so he it can be healthy again.
As you are coaching Americans, remember keystone and the institution are two philosophies. One is geographically controlled and the other has no geographical barriers.
In St. Louis, denominational leadership does not like us coaching pastors or training leaders within other geographical districts. You cannot stop or control keystone, she must be released. I'm not staying in a system that keeps trying to hold back a Holy Spirit empowered and released movement of disciple making. That verdict is just about to be heard. I'm just waiting to see what happens.
Gotta run! Me too!
Thanks for your thoughts, Bob. The reason I get so passionate about this is that one of the greatest threats to the discipleship movement right now is it's arrogance. 'We're the remnant! We're the only serious Christians!' etc. From my experience of working with discipleship movements for 15 years, the most fruitful and sustainable movements are built on a foundation of teachability, accountability, unity and servanthood. When we as leaders cultivate these attitudes, then we there is room for the Holy Spirit to lead the way.
Re: Point 1. How do you deal with the organized hierarchy in the NT? There were elders, bishops, and priests long before Constantine. How do you deal with liturgy? The NT church clearly had these things. How do you deal with centralized meetings? Should believers ever gather?
Re: Point 2. I think the leaders quit making disciples because they lost faith in God. The over-emphasis on hierarchy, structure, and strategy was the consequence of the loss of faith, not the cause of it.
Re: Point 3. The point of the Hagar and Sarah story is to minister by faith and not according to the flesh. It has nothing to do with structures or lack of structures, unless of course we're trusting those structures to produce spiritual fruit. Only the Spirit gives birth to Spirit. But human beings are structured people - even in the NT church.
Re: point 4. I *don't* know that the institutional church is rejecting this. As I said, I've worked with two institutional churches in America that are eager and active in making disciples. I've worked with many institutional churches across Europe, Asia, and Africa. Of course, we're speaking in generalities. I think we all agree that it's wrong to invite people to be consumers. But there *are* churches that are inviting people to be apprentices of Jesus. There *are* churches that are seeking to multiply 'partners in the gospel.' Of course there are others - probably the majority - that are still stuck in the consumer mentality. But there are plenty of others that aren't. Focus on them.
Re: point 6. Of course we're teaching Spirit baptism! What kind of ministry would we have without the Spirit? Saying that Keystone cannot work within controlling structures is controlling. :-) Do you see the irony here? I'm not sure what you mean by controlling structure. Is believers gathering to pray, study the word, and worship controlling? Is recognizing spiritually mature leadership controlling? When they excercise that leadership in biblical ways, is that controlling? I'm not getting you here.
Re: point 7. If the Keystone movement wants to control what other churches are doing, then I wouldn't release it either. But if Keystone wants to go and multiply disciples then I'm all for it! I think most pastors would be, too. What kind of blessing are you looking for? You say you're not worried about writing books. Good! Don't worry about training others either. Just go make disciples! When you're doing it, those who have a passion for the Great Commission will seek you out.
Re: Point 8. The way some people talk about success in the disciple-making movements, it comes across as just the grandchild of the seeker sensitive movement. This is the new strategy guarenteed to produce results! Personally, I think the true discipleship movements are about changing the standard for success. What if someone gives everything to making disciples but it doesn't produce thousands? Should they quit and say it doesn't 'work?'
Actually, Keystone is not about geography or institutions. It's about making disciples. We gotta stay focused!
Blessings on you!
honest2blog, I appreciate your approach.
Now the pot is full of interesting things to ponder over. Thanks men.
Whew, I was feelin a little warm over here.
I also appreciate honest2blog comments here.
But I must say, if we had time to talk you would understand the underlying reasons for speaking up here on this stuff. Let me give you a hint: IT IS POLITICAL.
YOU ARE RIGHT, PEOPLE ARE SEEKING US OUT. I SHOULD STOP TRYING SO HARD TO HELP THE CHURCH DISCOVER HER SICKNESS. I'M LEAVING ALL THAT BEHIND.
I WILL BE BACK WITH SOME SARCASM NOW AND AGAIN, THO! It's sarcasm, not arrogance. Perhaps both are bad.
Humm!
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