On quitting the Modern American Church...
Julia Duin wrote a recent book entitled, "Quitting Church: Why the Faithful are Fleeing and What To Do About It." While I have only read a few excerpts it is an interesting title for a book. I suspect that the reasons Julia gives would be different than mine. Not sure.
Let me ask you. Why do you think the Faithful are Fleeing? Why did you Flee the modern American Church? Perhaps we can learn something fresh and new. Depending on the comments this might be painful. But let's try hard to hear one another. Sometimes I think we get too defensive and end up passing each other rather that hearing and understanding one another.
One way to avoid misunderstanding would be to ask more questions before making judgments.
Again the questions, "Why do you think the Faithful are Fleeing? Why did you Flee the modern American Church?" I'll weigh in on this later. My story is some story.
posted by Bob Carder @ 11:21 AM
27 comments
27 Comments:
Well, first of all, that title is rather assumptive. Not all faithful are fleeing and I would like to see how she defines who is fleeing and what makes them faithful.
But that said, I can talk about what would make me leave the church, if I were to do so: A lack of authenticity or a sense that the leadership was not open to the prompting of God and His Holy Spirit. That would cause me to leave a church, if not THE Church.
I suspect when Ms. Duin talks about "Quitting Church" she's talking about quitting the institutional church, not the Bride of Christ.
Nothing could make me leave THAT Church.
very good, Mike!
You got my attention, I thought you were going to write about why you haven't left the modern American Church. You did call me on being assumptive which is something I come to appreciate about you. Don't cut me any slack!
i know that i left my church if 12 years because from the moment i set foot in the door my first day back from a missions trip, He told me my time there was done and that i had to move. I ended up where in this movement because God showed me in EVERY church i visited, there was pretension out the whazoo, people claiming to have God's interests at heart when their finances go towards cafes and bookstores and lounges and smoke machines and movie screens. FIVE MOVIE SCREENS IN ONE AUDITORIUM!!!! you couldnt even see three of them during the service, they were just backround images! But still,i went out to find a new church, and all i found were circuses, theatres and concert halls. Visually impressive, but not pursuing Truth in any sense.
People are quiting church because more and more people are waking up to the reality that there is no god.
Those who stay remain seduced by magical thinking.
Thank God I'm an atheist.
David I suppose you think that's a cute closing comment? You'll get thank him Him someday -- hopefully for turning you around.
If there isn't a God David, why do you waste your precious few years of existance posting on a Christian blog? Kind of a waste isn't it?
Athiest: Good for you...you left the church. Have you left all faith or do you have a religion of your own? What is it? Why the attack...why do you care? Or, is there something about "church people" that is of interest to you? What is it?
You feel the need to evangelise. Why do you care? To earn a better place in heaven? To ensure against possible loss of salvation (if you do not believe in eternal security)?
Why not let God do the work of calling people to salvation? I mean the complete work with no human interaction. After all, God would perform it more reliably than human agency.
Why not chill out for the rest of your life? You've got your salvation. Enjoy the occasional sin - it's all forgiven in advance.
Remember, you get to spit on atheist retards like me from heaven. Or maybe dropping a turd is more your style. You may be full of shit.
missio Dei...God calls us to partner with him in his mission.
Christians are not called to just sit around and enjoy salvation. We are called to such a greater life than that. We are called to change the world. This world is a pretty crappy place because of the Fall of Adam. Christians are set apart to make this a better place. Though we may not always wear the cloak of Christ well, this is what we are supposed to do. We are called to fulfill the mission that Christ started of bringing the Kingdom of Heaven to earth.
Sin is not "forgiven in advance." In fact, if we are in Christ, we are to be without sin, for we die to it. God cleanses us from all sin. The occasional sin must be confessed and repented from.
In the afterlife we will not be doing anything to you. You will likely be the last thing on our minds. But it will be sad beyond articulation for those who do not know Christ.
David is really hungry for God - it's an inner hunger that cannot be quenched on his own.
I just wish the Church had not hurt or hindered him. I wish I had the chance to personally show him who Jesus is, face to face.
I'm glad David shows up here, it reminds me to pray for Him and for his healing. I am truly praying for his healing. I'm also asking for forgiveness on behalf of those who have hurt in in the name of Jesus! Will you grant forgiveness, David? Will you let me ask for all the others in your life and past? I'm praying for you today that somehow God will reveal His glory to you so that you will see. It happened to Paul on the road to Damascus and it can happen to you.
"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces." Matthew 7:6
"If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. I tell you the truth it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town." Matthew 10:14-15
Wonder if Jesus ever asked forgiveness for offending anyone? He was so intolerant.
It's like a 'good Christian, bad Christian' routine.
Joel, please make up your mind, am I a dog or a pig, I can't be both, can I?
Which of Bob and Joel is correctly led by the Holy Spirit? Can the Holy Spirit be giving out contradictory messages? If a disinterested observer were to assess this, would she choose nasty or nice?
Joel, I'll be waiting for you in Hell, with an axe.
Take your pick David. Those words came from the mouth of Jesus. If you want to apply them to yourself, go ahead. By your mocking tone, perhaps they do fit you quite well.
There's no contradiction here. Christians are called to extend both truth and grace. You trample both. My post doesn't mean that I hate you. Nor does it mean that I wish to see you condemned to hell. It's a simple reminder that Jesus doesn't call Christians to grovel after the people who arrogantly refuse to accept salvation. Jesus wouldn't even talk to Herod precisely for this reason.
Nice final comment. I'm sure it's quite effective in middle school. Unfortunately, it's your comic book theology that will lead you to the place where there is darkness, weeping, and gnashing of teeth. In that place their worm never dies and the fire is never quenched. That's reality and I hope you don't discern it too late.
I do not believe David is trampling the pearls. I think he is listening and taking some of what is being communicated in.
Listen, David responds the way we respond to him. He appears to be appalled with judgmental comments.
David knows what sin is. I do not believe Hell will be his final destination. I believe the Holy Spirit is working overtime on him.
For some reason, God sees that He has value to the kingdom.
David knows the Scriptures and he even understands them. There is pain that needs to be broken in his heart.
I'm gonna keep defending his right to visit this blog and when he shows up, I pray for Him and His need to open His heart to the one who cares like none other, Jesus!
I'm David's friend. I can only hope that I am his.
What has left a big impression on me, is the almost total personal transformation Bob seems to have undergone over the past year or so. Just from looking at the interaction with others on this blog, and reading of those experiences he shares with us, I have to say it is nothing short of truly radical (a term I rarely use).
I hope I don't damage your cause, Bob, with praise from an "atheist".
I would actually like to meet Christians like Bob, where are you all? If your faith can lead to such transformation, why are you hiding it from the world?
I hope you're right, Bob.
I hope you're sincere, David. The absence of scoffing and cursing says that maybe you are.
i think i am right.
Hey Bob,
Would you define "judgmental" for me? I'm not trying to bait you. I just want to look back and see what you're alluding to. If judgmentalism means calling someone out on bad behavior, I guess I'm guilty. Is that what you had in mind?
I don't think anyone is wrong for calling anyone out on bad behavior. How we do it is another huge topic. But making assumptions about someone we do not know can lead to judgments about that person. I don't want guys like David to ever think I am making assumptions and judgments about them. I believe I am going to see David personally, probably not on this earth, since he lives in an undisclosed corner of the world, but I will see Him on the other side, I really believe I will.
I do believe that we are all in need of grace, I know I need it.
The world is appalled when we judge them. Correcting is different than judging, right?
Thanks David, for your kind words. I'll take any compliment from anyone but a compliment from you brings a smile to my face. Keep em coming. Thanks :)
Thanks for the clarification. I'm sorry if I crossed the line into judgmentalism. An atheistic opinion doesn't bother me in the least. In fact, I enjoy the dialogue. I can hardly tolerate immature and disrespectful behavior, however.
But this is your house, so to speak, not mine. I'll try to refrain from making assumptions.
Joel just talk back to David - He is listening.
Again, let's be clear, I do not believe David was being immature or disrespectful. He was being honest with us. I like that about him.
If David lived on my street, we would be friends - the kind of friends that are loyal, honest and who celebrate victories and also share in sorrow.
I even think we would heal together from the wounds we both received from the church - deep wounds.
question, david,
where are you? Youve made a few references comparing america and china, but youve never really said, or ive just never read, where youre from.
it would be something nice to know.
I'm from Missouri, if it helps
question, david,
where are you? Youve made a few references comparing america and china, but youve never really said, or ive just never read, where youre from.
it would be something nice to know.
I'm from Missouri, if it helps
David lives on a remote island in an undisclosed part of the world. ;)
David, can you gives us some more clues?
David lives on a remote island in an undisclosed part of the world. ;)
David, can you gives us some more clues?
Australia.
Please don't mistake that for Austria.
dont fall for the stereotypes.
there are some americans who can read a map
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