Healthy Churches vs. New Churches
On Tuesday I am off to Freeman, South Dakota to meet with a church board. I will be challenging them to engage a process that follows in the steps of Jesus. We call this Healthy Church Initative. We simply do what Jesus did and coach churches to do what Jesus did.
Here's my question for you? I have my answer, I just want to see what you think. Can a traditional church see a turnaround and can they become more healthy? Do we need to plant churches or help established churches become healthy. Is it either or or both?
What do you think?
I cannot wait to see your answer.
posted by Bob Carder @ 12:28 AM
17 comments
17 Comments:
You know what I think.
We HAVE to do both. We cannot forsake those in the established church who are seeking to find a revitalized faith AND we cannot try to force current pre-Christians to fit into the mode of the established churches, IF THAT'S NOT WHERE THEY'RE COMFORTABLE.
Just because a church has lost its way (in whatever way that might have happened) doesn't mean God has turned His back on them -- and if He hasn't, then surely we cannot either.
To me the question is, does there come a time when, after trying, repeatedly, to lead an established church back to health, that we just have to stand back and watch them go their wrong-headed way -- a "tough love" for churches? I have less clarity on this question. I just keep coming back to the OT patriarch who dared to ask God to spare the city for just 50, then 40, then 20, then 10 faithful people -- and God said he would, if that many faithful were found. There's an important principal in that.
Mike - I know what you think and I like what you say and how you say what you say which reveals what you think.
What do you mean, "Just because the Church has lost its way." Do you really think we have lost our way?
Would the unchurched be welcome and feel comfortable in your worship service at Beulah? Do you have a service of worship that connects them to God?
I do agree, but I also know God let the Israelites waunder around in the wildnerness because of their stubborness to change.
Why don't Christians see that the Church is also for the pre-Christian and not just for themselves and their wants, wishes or demands.
What's wrong with this picture?
I do think God will let hardheaded, pride-filled people have it their own way which will lead to the demise of their own local church in time.
We are supposed to be reached to reach others. Where did the holy huddle for believers come from?
My trip tommorrow will test this issue out. Does the local church want to pay the price to become healthy and live out the example of Jesus. Are they willing to pray for and reach out to lost people? Will they actively and intentionally love each other in the family as well as those outside of the family?
Whose choice is it anyway? The local Church or God? You'll see -we decide on being healthy or not.
Mike - I know what you think and I like what you say and how you say what you say which reveals what you think.
What do you mean, "Just because the Church has lost its way." Do you really think we have lost our way?
Would the unchurched be welcome and feel comfortable in your worship service at Beulah? Do you have a service of worship that connects them to God?
I do agree, but I also know God let the Israelites waunder around in the wildnerness because of their stubborness to change.
Why don't Christians see that the Church is also for the pre-Christian and not just for themselves and their wants, wishes or demands.
What's wrong with this picture?
I do think God will let hardheaded, pride-filled people have it their own way which will lead to the demise of their own local church in time.
We are supposed to be reached to reach others. Where did the holy huddle for believers come from?
My trip tommorrow will test this issue out. Does the local church want to pay the price to become healthy and live out the example of Jesus. Are they willing to pray for and reach out to lost people? Will they actively and intentionally love each other in the family as well as those outside of the family?
Whose choice is it anyway? The local Church or God? You'll see -we decide on being healthy or not.
The Planter said:
What do you mean, "Just because the Church has lost its way." Do you really think we have lost our way?
Mike says:
Read that sentence closely. It says "just because a (singular) church has lost its way..." so, no, to answer your question, I do not believe the Church has lost its way.
The planter says:
Would the unchurched be welcome and feel comfortable in your worship service at Beulah? Do you have a service of worship that connects them to God?
Mike says:
You know, I sure hope so. I really do. But I don't know for sure. I don't know a lot of unchurched (yes, that bothers me...). Do we have a service of worship that connects them to God? Oh, that's a really good question. I think what we have is a service that nurtures and educates and strengthens those who already believe. But I'm not even sure about that. So much depends upon the attitude of the worshipper. God is there in our services and if the worshipper's attitude is right, you will encounter Him. We provide the opportunity to connect with God, but we cannot provide the connection. That comes from God -- and from the worshipper.
The planter asks:
Why don't Christians see that the Church is also for the pre-Christian and not just for themselves and their wants, wishes or demands.
What's wrong with this picture?
Mike answers:
Because we've been led to believe that it's all about us. We have been talking about this very question in our study of "Revolution." Even when we say "IT's all about Jesus" we really mean "as long as its the way I like it." What's wrong with the picture is that it's focused on the wrong thing. It should focus neither on the churched or the unchurched -- but on God. How do we do that? How? We (the churched) have to be so in touch with Jesus and God that our lives draw people to Him. We have to be not so much "seeker-sensitive" as "seeker-attractive." But again, how?
The Planter says:
We are supposed to be reached to reach others. Where did the holy huddle for believers come from?
Mike says:
I think you're over-reaching just a bit there. That's too simplistic. The church (small c intentional) isn't JUST for the unreached. But when the focus shifts from God and what He wants to making the worship what WE want and what makes US feel good, that's when it becomes a problem.
The Planter says:
My trip tommorrow will test this issue out. Does the local church want to pay the price to become healthy and live out the example of Jesus. Are they willing to pray for and reach out to lost people? Will they actively and intentionally love each other in the family as well as those outside of the family?
Mike says:
I certainly expect you to let us know the answers to these questions.
The Planter asks:
Whose choice is it anyway? The local Church or God? You'll see -we decide on being healthy or not.
Mike answers:
I wholeheartedly agree here. We are the ones who choose. And until we're ready to face the reality that there is a problem, we won't choose (but, of course, not choosing is a choice).
Hmmm? I imaging that a church that is healthy is a church that is planting new sprouts and growing existing healthy branches! Perhaps the question is what should we do first? Cultivate exisitng churches to becoming healthy churches that produce daughters (and consequently waiting) or simply plant churches that have healthy strategies to begin with (consequently leaving unhealthy churches in the wake of newly formed bodies). What do you think.
I see I struck a nerve or two! Keep thinking and writing, I will be back!
Not so much a nerve, as an interesting and heart-tugging (and timely) topic!
Hurry back!
If only we could disinfect the church from the Americanized view of Christianity. It seems that when certain missional things are missing in the church it ceases to be the Church! We want to call it a church -but when we stop being what God called us to be we are just imitators of the real thing. Whatever happened to being a New Testament community or having a Great Commandment Heart for those inside and outside the walls of the church and oh I must not forget -the Priorities of the Great Commission.
Church is for those inside and outside yes those reached and unreached. But when the focus shifts selfishly to the sole purpose of managing and caring only for those in the family it ceases to be the living organism called the church.
What the church is -is what it lives and breathes. When it no longer lives its purpose entirely it may be just another counterfeit. Looks like the real thing but isn't because what it is-it does live.
I know of alott of counterfeits that look good, worship well, but do not have NT Community or Great Commandment Love or Great Commission Priorities.
Over-reaching??
All I know is Satan is thrilled with the ineffective American counterfeit of an Acts Church. The further we are away from the New Testament Church the closer we are to being counterfeit.
Now I've done went to meddling.
I guess I'm a wounded victim of the counterfeit. Beaten, bruised and left for dead. Jesus would have never let that happen in NT Community, Great Commandment Love, Great Commision Priorities.
Get what I mean?
The Planter wrote:
If only we could disinfect the church from the Americanized view of Christianity. It seems that when certain missional things are missing in the church it ceases to be the Church! We want to call it a church -but when we stop being what God called us to be we are just imitators of the real thing.
Mike E. writes:
Preach it, Pastor!
The Planter writes:
Church is for those inside and outside yes those reached and unreached. But when the focus shifts selfishly to the sole purpose of managing and caring only for those in the family it ceases to be the living organism called the church.
Mike E. writes:
I think you've hit the nail on the head with your phrase, "When the focus shifts selfishly..." with selfishly being the key word. I do agree that the focus of everything the church does needs to be God-focused. Not unreached focused, not reached focused. God focused. When, if, we focus on Him, it will be impossible for our focus to shift selfishly.
The Planter wrote:
When it no longer lives its purpose entirely it may be just another counterfeit. Looks like the real thing but isn't because what it is-it does live.
Mike E. writes:
Yes, it MAY be another counterfeit. (Word choice is so much more vital than people realize, says the Word Guy.) It MAY also be a church in desperate need of healing and not counterfeit, just "beaten, bruised, and left for dead."
The Planter writes:
I know of alott of counterfeits that look good, worship well, but do not have NT Community or Great Commandment Love or Great Commission Priorities.
Mike E. writes:
Well, sure, if it were perfect it'd be Heaven, right? :)
The Planter writes:
All I know is Satan is thrilled with the ineffective American counterfeit of an Acts Church. The further we are away from the New Testament Church the closer we are to being counterfeit.
Mike E. writes:
No argument from me on that. No argument at all, really, just a challenge to see beyond the hurt.
The Planter wrote:
I guess I'm a wounded victim of the counterfeit. Beaten, bruised and left for dead. Jesus would have never let that happen in NT Community, Great Commandment Love, Great Commision Priorities.
Mike E. writes:
I know, I know. But none of us, even the ones doing it the best, is Jesus. We try to be, hopefully, but we're imperfect. We're prideful. We run roughshod over each other and excuse it by saying, "we just need to move on and get past this." But we can't get past it until we acknowledge it, repent of it, seek forgiveness for it, make amends, THEN we can leave our offerings. But not until then.
The Planter asks:
Get what I mean?
Mike E. answers:
Oh yeah.
Mike - Your reminder that the church is also beaten, battered, bruised and left for dead got my attention. You are so right.
For me, I have acknowleged it, repented, asked for forgiveness, and I have my offering, but where is the peace when it is all one sided and I'm the only one reaching out?
Maybe others are hurting more than me and they can't.
The study of the Church as a Biblical and Theological topic has always intrigued me. My experience and frustration in the contemporary church has led to both frustration and hope. Frustration with so much in the contemporary church which has led me to seriously consider whether the church as we know it can ever be renewed. But also “Hope” - hope because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and because of those faithful communities of believers down through history which have honestly followed the Risen One and have revealed the reality of Christ in His Church and the coming Kingdom. Possibly too little attention has been given to the doctrine of the Church with modernism. What excites me most about the post modern movement is that desire to discover the biblical picture of the Church. Their hunger to model the missional new testament model of humility and hunger for the word coupled with the knowledge and understanding of those in the history of the Church that have sought an understanding of Ecclesiology through the application of the scriptures is indeed a reason for excitement. I am sure that very few of the individuals in the churches that you have referred to needing renewal could explain how the Church has transpired from the New Testament communities through to the current age. Very few could explain the role that believers of old like Francis of Assisi, Martin Luther, James Arminius, John Calvin, and John Wesley contributed to the cause of Christ. I am excited of the emergent movement because they appear to share one thing in common with these figures in addition to the power of the Holy Spirit; they have an increased hunger for the Word of God and the applications of the truth that it provides. The Church will prove herself as the vital bridegroom when believers are able to stand and say as Luther did “ I stand convicted by the Scriptures and my conscience is taken captive by God’s Word.” The key then to renewal whether frustrated old Church or new kid on the block is indeed the hunger for His Word powered by the Holy Spirit and applied through the incarnation of Jesus Christ in a fully devoted Christ followers life. On this the Church must take her stand, she can do no other. God help us. Amen…
Anonymous:
Yes. I affirm that. Even admit to not knowing as much as I should about church history. But I do also affirm Luther's statement and am working diligently to make it real in my life.
Do I know you? You "sound" familiar.
I beleive too many Churches have accepted the "tolerance movement" or "Isolationist movement" We are to be the light of the world, if we are bickering in our churches, who wants that, the unbeliever? I think not! Nor build it and they will come is the way either. People are HUNGREY in these last days to make sense of their lives so they turn away from the churches because of so-called
Sorry, I am not good at this blogging. You do not need to be in a Church to witness but walk the best we can in Christ's Word so un-believers wil WANT what we have. And be ready to reach out to those in need. Bob, you are missed, loved and prayed for. You walked the walk and you showed the way for many you left behind in Indiana. AR
AR - I miss you too and praise God for you and SR. Your friendship is valued!
To anonymous,
It will be the emergent 20-30 something's who redeem the church. They are willing to die for something and they want their lives to count. I am banking on them for 30 churches in Kansas City and St. Louis along with a few other "older" visionaries who are prepared to create new wineskins to hold a fruit of the harvest.
Let's pray for a new kind of church in our new and established churches. I believe God can and wants to do it in America.
To Mike E.
The further I travel in the pilgrimage of the Christian Faith; I realize the importance of the path that has been traveled. A few years back I heard Jim Garlow (Skyline Wesleyan Church) speak on the topic of Church History. I have since been inspired to dig in and understand, but it is often difficult reading some of the “old” stuff. With the Davinci Code hitting the large screen soon (05/19/06) I am challenged that we (the Church) will have an opportunity to “give an answer” if we are prepared to do so. Understanding the Word and the History of the Church will have us prepared to do so when the time comes. Garlow has a website with some Church History apologetic tools that are solid. As far as “sounding familiar” Not likely that we have ever met, but I am sure that we have sat under some of the same teaching and no doubt brothers in Christ. So, I have no doubt that one day we will meet.
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