My friend & a mega church????
My very good friend "George" (not her real name) attended a mega church of around 6,000 people this last weekend.
Here is what she said, and what she said she shared was something she thought was wonderful if not excellent. 1. The service was more like going to a movie than anything else. 2. It was professional and of the quality of something right out of a big city, like Chicago. 3. She said, "They added more screens up front to add to the stimulation and excitement of the event." 4. It was more like a rock concert with exceptional music. 5. I asked, "How many of the 6,000 people who attended last weeked at (?) came from other churches?" My friend answered, "Probably most are from other churches." 6. My friend reminded me that they are seeker sensitive and exist for those who never attend church.
In a "Come & See" attraction model like (?) church --are new Christ followers reached and are they quixkly released to make other disciples a common practice?
I asked, "Do you think all of that is good? She said, "Of course it was good, it was excellent."
I'm not church bashing! But, I am revealing a sin! (is this bashing)? How can this be good? Are we measuring the wrong stuff? Is this church effective? In my last x number of years of pastoral ministry I measured the wrong things. I thought buildings, budgets and more butts in the pew were success indicators. Guess what? They are not indicators of spiritual success.
What is a success indicator? It is simply - "Believers loving God enough to obey Him by living out the mandate of the Great Commission and then enfolding all Christ followers into community." As we love Jesus and obey Him we will obey and enfold new Christ followers who do the same.
It is freeing not to feel the pressure of being a mega church pastor. I don't want to measure my life success by measuring more: Buildings, Budgets and Butts! These things do not impress God. But...?
What does impress Him? Really, what is spiritual success in the body of Christ? Let me guess: It is not what you think it is!
I hope to hear from you on this..
posted by Bob Carder @ 11:18 PM
16 comments
16 Comments:
Any chance, Bob, you can sit down with her and ask more questions? I'd like to know what "George" thinks God and the Bible says about the purpose of the church - in very specific and biblical terms. I'd like to see you then guide her in comparing and contrasting her understanding of the biblical purpose of the church (assuming it's biblically correct) to what she saw at the mega-stimulator church. I'd also like to hear her think through what she understands the vision of the mega-church to be versus what she observes actually happening.
I sometimes wonder if we've lost the ability to think. We are bombarded with people and organizations that tell us WHAT to think and never HOW to think. The media with its liberal bias bombards us with what we are to think about the war, our president, gay marriages, embryonic stem cells, etc. The mega-church pastors tell us what to think about sin, sacrifice, sojourner faith, a God to be feared and praised, etc...or do they?
Is "George" thinking? Can she?
I had an interesting discussion with a colleague the other day about the mega-church. My colleague said, "It will not go away" almost as a means of accepting its place in church history and to end any conflict of philosophy of ministry. I agreed. You don't make things that big go away.
I also said I don't have a problem with Willow Creek and Saddleback. I think they are ordained of God. I said I have a problem with all the pretenders out there. Pretenders of vision, pretenders of methodology, pretenders of heart, pretenders of impact, pretenders of Hybels/Warren, pretenders ad nauseum... Sometimes I wonder if we aren't raising up more Ted Haggards than we are Bill Hybels.
End of rant.
Bob, it is not either/or but both/and. God uses what God chooses to lead people to a saving knowledge of him. Shooting from the outside in at any institution that is at the very least attempting to do the will of God sounds bitter and petty. It sounds like the disciples who were whining to Jesus about "others" doing in His name. Who cares which mode or method, it is about people meeting a loving God by the way of Jesus. Honestly, we should care less how God works and care totally about how we fit into His plan.
Greg, I have watched hundreds come to faith in churches (large, small, and house) lead by "pretenders" I have been a pretender at times. Riddled with sin, angry at everything yet called by God to step up one more time, make one more effort and hopefully, somehow, the Holy Spirit will reach those in need.
Guys, enjoy this day that the Lord has made, go touch a life, say something kind to someone who needs your words, watch the sun rise and set, pray much, love much and judge little. That would be a day any "church" could agree on...Take care...Jim
Bob: You can't make an example out of one person's one time visit to one church -- regardless of what church it is.
Greg: You've let the evangelical world tell you what to think about the media. It's enough to say "the media" when referring to the media. No need to liberal bash. There are perfectly "good" Christians in the media -- and, I might add, on the liberal side of the aisle. See Bobert's post on God using people he wouldn't vote for.
Jim: Amen.
Jim said: Shooting from the outside in at any institution that is at the very least attempting to do the will of God sounds bitter and petty. It sounds like the disciples who were whining to Jesus about "others" doing in His name. Who cares which mode or method, it is about people meeting a loving God by the way of Jesus. Honestly, we should care less how God works and care totally about how we fit into His plan.
The Planter-Bob: I don't even have my gun loaded and I'm shooting from the outside? I am whining if you want to call it that - about every Christ-following Church who makes disciple-making a corporate event rather than a personal Jesus incarnational practice in the life of every professing believer. I'll beat that drum in the disciple-making movememnt I am part of here in St. Louis and Kansas City and I'll have that voice in America with every other church of every size. The issue is -Are we obeying God in making disciples who make disciples and is it a personal activity of all Christ followers?
Guys - You might want to read my questions and answer them. I never said the mega church was not being used of God, or did I? I never condemned the mega church, or did I?
I did say I was exposing the sin of just shifting saints around from other churches which is common in an attraction model. Now I do know this church very well -so I am not an outsider looking in I am a friend of the pastor and some key leaders. I just thought it might be interesting to hear what believers think of church when they go or visit. By the way there was not mention of having a God-encounter and maybe there was I do not know. I do know people talk about the things that mostly impact them first.
Since I am not looking in as an outsider I do know that hundreds are becoming Christ followers and there is little of no discipleship occuring other than the main event.
I also know that they spent $40,000 last year on their Christmas series "Come home for Christmas" set two years ago. No criticism here just curiosity as to how many new disciples are made and discipled by other disciples.
By the way, I mean it when I say, I no longer view buildings, budgets, and more butts in pews a spiritual success indicator. Do you want to know why? Jesus doesn't measure spiritual success that way.
Can someone tell me how Jesus measures spiritual success?
Can someone tell me how Jesus measured spiritual success?
A: Being willing to die (in fact dying to self) for another, just as He died for us.
Are Christ followers willing to die for Jesus in order to faithfully obey Him and further His mission?
The mandate is clear and Jim's question is a right one. Let's die for His cause by surrendering our selfish motivations and give it all up for His mission -the mission He died for and then passed on to us to fulfill so others will reap eternal rewards from following Him.
Thanks Jim!
Greg-You cause me to go deeper once again.
And God knows I need to go deeper.
Let's just call it what it is - a deepened commitment to fufill the mandate of Jesus! We will never do it by not thinking for ourselves and reading for ourselves and obeying for ourselves.
I hate the media too! And, sometimes the media is in church on Sunday. Isn't that true!
After MANY years in the media, yes, I was one of "them," I can safely say there are devout Christians there in addition to other lost folks who need to hear the truth.
Attitudes denigrating the media are not helpful. Those attitudes perpetuate the media's opinion of Christians: "They hate us, how can they claim to be love? Sanctimonious haters."
Nor do Christian leaders hating the media encourage young people, young Christians, who are considering entering this vast mission field -- young Christians like my daughter.
Please examine your hearts in this.
I still watch the liberal media and it is hillarious and painful. Sometimes I get mad and somethimes I crack up all over myself.
The issue is nailed by Greg when he said, "I sometimes wonder if we have lost our ability to think." Mike E also nailed it when he confronts us in godly love to examine our hearts and stay away from "Christian media denigration" and let's pray for young Christ followers to join the media with Christ-following influence.
Thanks Greg and Mike. We are called back to thinking for ourselves and representing Jesus incarnationally in all we say and do.
I still wonder what Jesus would do with the media in her present state. Maybe He is doing it with and through Mike,His daughter and others.
Here is a question to muddy the waters a bit:
What happens in the Church when we are "obeying God in making disciples who make disciples and who see it as personal activity of all who seek to obey Christ"?
isn't some of the result of that "butts, budgets, and buildings"?
not promoting here, just being provocative
Spam - In the present paradigm the answer is yes. In the New Testament paradigm the answer is no.
Here in St. Louis we will likely not own multi million dollar facilities unless you count up the value of all the houses we meet in as small groups. We will disperse the money for widows, orphans and the poor -while some may go into leadership funding. When we get to a manageable level we will spin off hundreds of churches who do the same. Isn't this the way Jesus did it and empowered the early church to do it?
We have no intention of having bigger buildings, larger budgets and more butts in pews. The truth is we will likely have no pews or buildings or large masses of people in one place.
Your comments and questions are superb. I am honored to address them as best I can as we attempt to follow Jesus in something we have never experienced before. You have presented a well thought out and full of wisdom set of comments. Now everyone can see for themselves that what we have engaged is truly a new wineskin return to the way Jesus did things.
We are fueling a Missional Movement with Holy Spirit empowerment.
It takes no money to make disciples who make disciples who make disciples. For the others who may not believe this -ask Jesus!
Thanks Spam for muddying the waters resulting in clear streams.
Hey Bobby Boy!!!
Thanks for the answer. What I was trying to draw out of you guys, was a specific directional ideolgy regarding the "style" of Church guys like you and I are more comfortable with. Funny thing is this. I am the former youth pastor in 2 Churches of over 2500 attendance in each. I find myself in the middle sometimes because I really value the coporate "worship" setting as a place of spiritual awakening. But at the same time, I really got sick to my stomach when I realized that the budget at the last Church I attended spent 3700 a year on flowers for the sanctuary, and less than 500 on non-member benevolence (widows, orphans etc...)
Spam - You nailed it - I call it resource madness. Bob puts a lot of emphasis on the idea it takes no money to do what we are doing and our church plant has taken very little when compared to the current model in America. It is not free to do what we are doing as we gather corporately.
The form we use frees up our resources to reach out to the lost. We empower our people, with our collective giving, to go out and meet the needs of people they know. Our group is now praying for people to help financially throughout the holidays. This is common throughout our culture. We have set some guidelines for ourselves. We want to use our money as a tool to facilitate a connection between our people and others. We are seeking out people with needs that know someone in our congregation. We want to avoid giving through programs because we want God to work through the tool of our money to make a connection that may make a difference in someones life in a very personal way.
Each month we take a portion of our money and make it available to our congregation to meet needs they find as they seek the lost. I am hopeful that this builds a culture that is always looking for a need to meet and expects to be empowered to meet it personally and not hand it off to the church or deacon board.
I can never envision a floral budget for our worship service - it seems self serving. While the Great Commission gets a lot of attention as the primary paradigm shift, this is another way in which I am trying to shift a paradigm with God's help.
So while Bob says it takes no money, I assure you it takes some. I also assure you that the money we get is being used to reach the lost. If you are angered by the thought of a floral budget over reaching the lost then I suggest you send your money to Bob at the address on the main page here and I assure you it will be well spent in advancing the Kingdom of God.
Everyone who takes part in supporting ministries that use their money in such a way will have to give an answer for it. Churches only waste money because people empower them with giving. Without your giving they can't buy the flowers.
Yes yes yes! You guys are onthe right track and I am enjoying the read!
While it takes no money to personally make disciples -everyone can do it. To fuel a mission and get a movement going we do need some money but not the millions it takes to keep our castles maintained. We have no castles -we rent as needed for now. It's fun to use God's money to help the widows, orphans and the poor. We make that a priority. As our disciples are taught to be good stewards they begin tithing and giving offerings and then they watch God use it to transform lives and show people that God loves them.
We can buy flowers for church services to make us look caring or we can buy food for the hungry and really care.
SPAM: You nailed it again! I just got another thought after re-reading your last comment.
Wonder what would happen if someone called some mega churches (over 2,000) to see what percentage of their budget/offerings go to benevolence "locally" in their community. I'm not talking about Missions but benevolence. What do you guys/gals think the average is?
I know of a church (600) that had a 1.3 million dollar income and gave less than $5,000 to benevolent ministries. Now that I think about it where did all the other money go and for who?
The Mega Church came out of the Modern Age and is a response to consumerism. It's like all those mom and pop shops closing for the Wall Mart Supercenters.
It happens and then happens again and again! I do know that many are leaving places and driving to the best game in town.
Now I know alott of godly good goes on in the services. What I don't know is, how many believers are in the world living incarnationally and purposefully obeying all that Jesus commands. Are they inviting friends to the game or bringing them to Jesus?
Just wondering!
Wat I also know is that 1/3 of the younger 20 somethings are leaving the church and many from the mega scene. We need to pay attention to the why and address it.
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