College education and the bills that follow
Many still believe the education process for training church leaders is not broke. Some think it needs to be modified in one way or another. Others think all we really ned is another curriculim that is missional.
Again, I have my thoughts, but I would like to hear from you.
Before you answer consider this truth. Christian education in a four year college leaves some students with a $20,000 plus debt. If the couple attending the same college gets married the debt can double or even exceed $50,000. Now how in the world can these young people serve the church in America and live even on a modest salary?
Is there another way to educate and train young people for leadership?
Do you have any thoughts we can consider?
posted by Bob Carder @ 4:29 PM
19 comments
19 Comments:
AMEN!
bivocational pastors is one idea. especially a pastor who wants to create disciples who create disciples...then they should all be vocational, right?
timothy...let me say it again: TIMOTHY!!!!
Seminary is not useless, but it is no place to send a person who has a desire to FIRST live obedience to the Great Commission...and SECOND be obedient by being a good steward of the resources God has given you.
Nearly 75,000 of debt and a bankruptcy had to teach me that...
So if I'm reading between the lines here, you're saying that wives are expensive. Good thing I'm single! :)
Love it AWM!
How about an apprentice type program?
the church that planted my church and 5 others has an internship program.
http://munciealliance.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=62&Itemid=49
I think it's self-sufficient. I think.
another good link
http://munciealliance.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=49
gonna try one more time.
here
and here.
if that doesn't work, fooey on it.
Unless you're paying cash for Bible College - the wages don't match the debt - especially when the movement is dying out.
My wife and I know all about that one. It's even harder to leave McChurch when such a debt is present.
Bi-vocational is good for many reasons than you have time for.
This is getting gooder and gooder! Or it is getting better and better?
We'll let the stream go alittle longer and I'll share my thoughts.
My university experience was, looking back, crucial in my development. It really instilled in me the value of communion and fellowship, it helped me grow emotionally in a way that reduced my need for therapy ;), it formed me in critical thinking as well as grounded me in intellectual vigorous classes, it allowed me an opportunity to glean wisdom from professors, priests, nuns, and franciscan brothers, and it gave me an atmosphere of prayer, spiritual discernment, and a focus on personal virtue!
Basically it was a powerful developmental step in the four main aspects of life: spiritual, social, intellectual, and emotional.
It readied me in every way possible, as it was the Theology/Catechetics dept. philosophy to do so.
That is MY experience (and many at Franciscan University). I wouldn't trade it for the money I owe now back...not a chance!
amdawson, Thanks for the info - it is worth the read and it is thought provoking. Thanks for adding to our dialogue.
I liken the seminary system to the military: Our country calls for the best and brightest to serve the country inthe armed service. They call us to serve with a striking obedience and a discipline lifestyle that is really second to none. The Country: feeds, trains, and sends its soldiers on all manner of service.
I propose that the Church act in much the same manner. A young man (or woman) is identified as a person of passion for the gospel and the Church. The Church then takes on the responsibility to train, feed, and ultimately send that person (to plant, or join a plant). The training could be seminary, it could be OJT, it could be mentorship...it should be all of the above. But to send a young man to college...empty handed, all accept for the loan applications...is just poor form.
There are many young people who cannot afford the rising costs of college and seminary training. And if they could afford it- I seriously doubt they would receive the education they need to meet the growing changes on the landscape of the American Church It seems striking that our seminaries and Christian colleges (not all or totally)remain years behind in relevancy.
I left seminary after about 80 hours towards my M-Div because it became more and more irrelevant to where I was living and serving.
I wish I had learned a marketplace skill instead. I wish that I would have used all that money and time preparing me for the real world -with real job skills outside of the church.
Training must be more than head knowlege. Real learning occurs when we are actually doing. I love mentoring and apprenticeship programs. Just think what could happen if every student called to specialized leadership/ministry received a marketplace skill as well as apprenticeship/mentoring in practicle on the job, real life, disciples making disciples experience.
In the Midwest District of the Missionary Church and in our St. Louis Mission District we are trying new things to capture the leadership pool of potential leadership that often slips through the system without being missed.
We are launching pilot programs to see how we can combine job skill training,Great Commissional movement instruction, credentialling classes, and other courses needed to prepare great leaders to lead the army of workers in the harvest.
Several questions: Why not have regional training centers in every large metro city near some community college? Why not combine the community college with approved course training/apprenticeships and mentoring releationships?
Several objectives need to be reached: Every student must have a marketplace skill. Every student must have teaching and learning in their education. (Real learning is done by doing). Every student must come out with little to no debt. Every student must be equipped to lead a Great Commissional disciples making disciples movement. Every student will have an apprenticeship/mentoring releationship. Every student will leave that Regional training center with all the necessary and relevant courses and apprenticeship experience to be credentialed and ready to begin a disciple driven church movement.
Sound fuzzy? Keep talking and we'll keep refining.
You guys are thinking.
One more thing....among many!
In another venue I heard alott of people suggesting that seminaries and colleges change their courses to meet the missional challenges of our day so as to better prepare workers.
I say - It won't work! Want to know why? Who will be teaching those courses? You answer that question and you prove my point. How many Great Commissional disciple multipliers do you know in these institutions?
Let's be careful again Bob...
While I think you make valid points in the need for educational reform in "ministry" type settings, my four years in school were a major catalyst for the way I serve Him today.
I agree that this isn't for everybody. God will use any avenue to educate, inspire, and change the heart of his people. And most of them are much lesse expensive than a college or seminary.
However, in my particular circumstance, I would never had solidified my faith had I not attended my school. And God may have this for others as well. Moreover, if my alma mater gave me an opportunity to speak, teach, or present the missional challenges of today, I (and many others) would do it in a heartbeat.
I also had an opportunity to study psychology, education, sociology, history, English, mathematics!, and other areas that have prepared me for service and given me doors into the lives of unbelievers.
These conversations ARE happening in schools...maybe not as much in the classroom, but if you put thousands of passionate, loving, Christ-followers together, the pot is sure to be stirred. This is where the REAL education happens. For a living, breathing example, read the blog of a current Bethel freshman (who has also often questioned his need for college, but understands why God has put him in that place...to be an instrument):
www.xanga.com/teknon_tou_Theo
Once again, you know I empathize with your point of view, but consider me a good "check and balance" when you inadvertantly come across like you are pigeonholing situations, institutions, or individuals who have a heart after God.
I love you brother!
awm said: Let's be careful again Bob...
While I think you make valid points in the need for educational reform in "ministry" type settings, my four years in school were a major catalyst for the way I serve Him today.
I agree that this isn't for everybody. God will use any avenue to educate, inspire, and change the heart of his people. And most of them are much lesse expensive than a college or seminary.
Bob says: Balnace has finally arrived. Again Anthony thank you for your comments. I do appreciate the freedom you have to share honestly with me and I also appreciate your freedom to do so.
Your second paragraph noted above summarizes some of my position. I love it when people agree with me. You know I always think I am right. And you also know I am not! You nailed me.
However, you were in a particularly good school "our own and only" Missionary Church college. I love your affirmation of a job well done by the Bethel College (in Mishawaka, Indiana) staff,mission and purposes and also Christian community.
The regional training center pilot program to be launched next fall in Nebraska will include the ministry training with credit from Bethel College to include some of our own profs as well as those from the college. So you nailed it my friend.
You are right that what I propose isn't for everyone - but it is something that could address our (some of our) overall disatisfaction with the lack of missional training in our schools across America. Many I fear, teach students to be loyal members of the institution instead of missional change agents in the world. Many I fear, teach students how to maintain the same old ineffective systems of today. End result -they are not prepared and lots if not many young "trained pastors" have or are leaving the church they were prepared to serve being disillusioned.
Thanks Twan for the check/accountability and also for the opportunity for me to expand my thoughts.
While I know I come across as pigeonholing certain "situations", "institutions" annd "individuals" I will try to hold it back a bit (maybe) in the future. Let's never forget ( I know you haven't) that while the point is not for all (O.K. I admit it) it is for more than we may think. I just grieve in my heart about the ministry trained leaders who are unprepared, then disillusioned and then are left with no marketplace skills because were never trained for them.
You are rare example of self-less living and one who has been well trained/prepared. You hold a masters degree and yet you choose to move to Kansas City, Mo - and you chose to work in a coffee shop to fulfill God's dream for your ministry in the here and now.
There are many who cannot do this because of debt. There are those who cannot serve in the marketplace because they have no marketplace skills. There are those who have degrees but do not understand the harvest potential nor do they understand there own responsibility to fulfill God's purposes. For them, they find a church who needs a pastor and they often do what has already been done. Some changes they recommend or begin are met with resistance by those who hold the mission at bay because of tradition and power.
We're on the same page. Now for those who are not -I cannot wait to hear from you.
Another perspective from a 20 something that did not go to seminary but does serve God - go to http://neo-luther.blogspot.com/ He asks the question -
"When did ministry turn to industry?". Does anyone else find it sad that there are discussions regarding cost to profit ratios for pastoral education?"
How would you answer that?
Hey - L.J. Evers leads our Midwest District Face2Face and Leadership Farm System among other things.
check it other education options for Pastor/Church Planters etc.
www.leadershipfarmsystem.org
check out Regional Training Centers
check out Face2Face
www.face2faceweb.org
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