A huge growth difference by Richard Greene
Natural or Artificial Growth?
GOD'S WAY....................MAN'S WAY
Natural.............................Artificial
Passionate........................Programmed
Spontaneous....................Scheduled
Relationships....................Meetings
Members empowered....Members controlled
Members released..........Members collected
Spirit-led..........................Method-based
Gives energy....................Consumes energy
Joy.....................................Duty
Go!.....................................Come!
Costs nothing....................Expensive
Does your church run on passion or programs?
posted by Bob Carder @ 10:48 AM
6 comments
6 Comments:
Hi Bob -
I would love it if you would unpack the meaning of this further. While I think that contrasts can be very helpful - I find this list somewhat simplistic and inaccurate.
By including "Go!" in the first column and "Come!" in the second column - are you suggesting that all attractional churches are not God's Way - not passionate - don't value relationships - are not Spirit-led?
I think these are volatile statements and inaccurate. If God is leading you to be part of an incarnational model of ministry, do you have to contrast yourself with a straw man that is the extreme description of an attractional model?
I know that you are passionate - but does that mean that those who are "doing church" differently than you are not passionate and are addicted to programs?
When I started Lake Hills Church, I tended to describe the kind of church I was starting by contrasting it with the church that I had come from. After awhile, I found that this was really negative. Instead of always comparing Lake Hills to my previous church - I started simply describing who we were.
I still struggle to define my own missional passion in ways that are not simply a contrast to an institutional church. Some clarification by comparison is helpful and necessary.
But I think it serves the body of Christ better if we can resist the temptation to paint Christ's bride with such negative descriptions. Let's keep positive about what God (not man) has done to build His church over the past centuries - and let's be positive about what God is doing to expand the kingdom in this century.
Your humble servant - davedv
Perspective - Dave says Bob is "suggesting that all attractional churches are not God's Way".
All I see in this post is a contrast between man's ways and God's ways - no mention of types of churches here?????? If this in some way describes a church you know then the connection has been made in your own mind not this post and that speaks volumes.
I think any ministry can fall into any of these behaviors and it is very helpful to keep in mind ways to see when man is leading instead of God.
Terry -
First - I asked Bob a question of clarification - "are you gusggesting...?"
In your post you state that Dave says Bob is "suggesting that all attractional churches are not God's Way." That is not what I said.
Second, when the first column is under the heading GOD'S WAY and includes "Go!" and the second coulumn is under the heading MAN'S WAY and includes "Come!" - there is an obvious contrast between the two. Therefore, I asked Bob to clarify if he believes/suggests that "all attractional churches are not God's Way."
This is my question for Bob. I hope he shares his answer with all of us.
Third, I would love it if you would explain what "that speaks volumes" means. Please help me to understand what I have said to you or what you think you understand about me.
Finally, I agree with your concluding statement - I think any ministry can fall into any of these behaviors and it is very helpful to keep in mind ways to see when man is leading instead of God. That's actually part of the point that I was trying to make.
Serving the King, davedv
Dave - If each list described a church in America -which church would you be a part of? The good news is that I know of no church that lives in the left stream totally. Actually fewer than you think spend most of their time in the left column. Negative? Probably but I'd rather be honest and negative than positive and misleading.
I find it extremely interesting that you put me in an "us" against "them" category. Where did you get that? Not here? Previous posts?
I love Jesus and I love His Church! I do not love her consumerism, self-centered, serve me, Americanized bigger buildings, bigger budgets and more butts in the pew priorities -I do love the Church as the body of Christ and never as a location. I do not love how we represent Jesus in the world.
Dave said: "If God is leading you to be part of an incarnational model of ministry, do you have to contrast yourself with a straw man that is the extreme description of an attractional model?"
Bob says, Where did this come from? "Do you have to contrast yourself?" This seems irrelevant and untrue and not associated with this post. However, it could be a perception derived by you from other posts. But, it is not a valid assumption on your part. You haven't spent enough time with me.
The church in America flows in and out of these two streams. I can see every church in America flowing in and out of these columns. We are all human and I am not Pastor Stunning Steve so I am no one's model of perfection. I love the contrast because helps us line up with the priorities of Scripture. I would much rather live in the God's way of doing ministry category. ALSO, THE "MAN'S WAY" LIST PROVES THAT YOU CAN GROW A CHURCH WITHOUT GOD. THE GOD'S WAY LIST CANNOT BE DONE WITHOUT GOD.
When I first saw this list I became very amazed at how the American Church has evolved over the years from New Testament Christianity as infection multiplied.
As a leader in this experiment called "Developing Authentic Disciple Multipliers" among other discriptors I find myself having a deep inner hunger to live in the God's way column. In our St. Louis project we are doing our best to live in the God's Way stream and it has proven to be incredible. We still flow in and out but my heart is to live in the left column as long and as much as I can.
The reason for the post? Last question: Does your church run on passion or programs? Which drives the ship?
Dave -"NO" to all of your questions. Many men start churches and they can do it without God's help. I believe we are to make disciples and it is God who plants Churches. If there is any hint of an "us/they" then it is what I find to be true after 24+ years in the pastorate. The American Church lives mostly in the man's way column (not always) I said mostly. And that is the reason I believe Barna is correct to say that in the next 20 years 50% of the churches in America will close. We have done things in our own power (I did -didn't you?) and it has proven to be a disaster.
I think Terry has his finger on the pulse!
I am a church planter in Central Asia. I've done a lot of reading on this subject. Many of the books do seem to characterize the Western Church negatively-- particularly the attractional model.
On one hand, I don't want to replicate the problems of the Western Church. I think that there is a place for reform. But reform can only happen if you see clearly the problems.
I went to Bible College and greatly benefited from it, but I don't believe that we need such training institutions on the field in order to raise up qualified leaders. I believe the local church needs to disciple it's own to maturity to provide itself with the leaders needed. I dont believe in creating a professional class of leaders.
Likewise I am sent out by a wonderful body of believers (A non-denominational church). I love them deeply and to me they are beautiful even if there are ways in which they do church that I dont agree with or dont prefer. Yes, many people invite the lost to the church services. And many of them also try to live out their relationship with God in front of the lost and proclaim the good news outside of the church meeting. I would say it is a "healthy" church in that there is a lot of love, a lot of passion for God and the lost, a deep desire of true transformation into Christlikeness, and strong commitment to obeying God and engaging with Him on his mission.
I love God and I love his Body-- because the Body is the expression of Jesus on the earth. I think we need to be careful to be lovingly critical and creative without being hurtful or condemning or unfair. God is working through the attractional model-- imperfect as it may be. But you know what? Let's say you went to a brand new field where there wasn't a single believer yet and no other cross-cultural workers and you implemented all the reforms you could think of. It would still be imperfect. And it might not even be effective. Or maybe not as effective as you would expect, because you might be depending on your reforms to be the key that would lead to success. I've seen many missionaries with outdated methods, lacking any concern for contextualization be much more successful than missionaries with "better" theology and practice.
While we work faithfully, doing our best, making appropriate reforms and contextualizing the gospel and church to the culture, in the end it is not all our improvements that wins the day. God does it.
It's me again... the anonymous church planter in Central Asia. After I made my previous post, I happened across the Lausanne Covenant. I read the introduction and the first point and I realized something else that contributes to this conversation: It's NOT a matter of me with my great ideas against others who are trying to do church the "wrong" way. I am a part of the body of Christ and if there are problems I need to humbly accept my complicity in it. It is like Paul writing in I Cor 12:21 - "The eye cannot say to the hand, 'I have no need of you,' nor again the head to the feet, 'I have no need of you.'" In fact our physical bodies do not do that. They work in coordination and if one leg is limping along because of injury, the other leg doesn't criticize it, it carries more weight so that the function of walking can be fulfilled.
We need to have a humble attitude in our desire to do church better.
Listen to attitude of members who constructed the Lausanne Covenant:
We, members of the Church of Jesus Christ, from more than 150 nations, participants in the International Congress on World Evangelization at Lausanne, praise God for his great salvation and rejoice in the fellowship he has given us with himself and with each other. We are deeply stirred by what God is doing in our day, moved to penitence by our failures and challenged by the unfinished task of evangelization. We believe the Gospel is God's good news for the whole world, and we are determined by his grace to obey Christ's commission to proclaim it to all mankind and to make disciples of every nation. We desire, therefore, to affirm our faith and our resolve, and to make public our covenant.
1. THE PURPOSE OF GOD
We affirm our belief in the one-eternal God, Creator and Lord of the world, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, who governs all things according to the purpose of his will. He has been calling out from the world a people for himself, and sending his people back into the world to be his servants and his witnesses, for the extension of his kingdom, the building up of Christ's body, and the glory of his name. We confess with shame that we have often denied our calling and failed in our mission, by becoming conformed to the world or by withdrawing from it. Yet we rejoice that even when borne by earthen vessels the gospel is still a precious treasure. To the task of making that treasure known in the power of the Holy Spirit we desire to dedicate ourselves anew.
Let's not make it an "us" versus "them" situation.
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