Persecution
The latest buzz is that many people think it will take persecution to get the church missional again.
I have my own thoughts as usual, but what do you think? Will it take persecution or is there another answer?
posted by Bob Carder @ 4:27 PM
15 comments
15 Comments:
For the masses - yes. Islam is spreading because of it's discipline and challenges and militant nature.
When hobby Christians are faced with death for their beliefs, those who choose Christ will do it all the way or not at all.
When do most Americans excercise? When they have too. When do they watch their diet - most when they have to. When will fat and lazy Christians well fed with spiritual constipation bickering about stupid stuff like loud music or "not enough illustrations or too much Bible" get serious about their faith - WHEN THEY HAVE TO.
I picture a host of fat, entertainment driven people sitting in the Roman Circa calling for the blood of revolutionaries (ministers and laymen who challenge the Great Franchise)May they all choke on their turkey legs and be resurrected by Jesus and join the Gladiators in the sand.
"When they have to."
My passion about the subject shows.
Now, after readiny my comments - let me say "fat" is not intended as a physical trait. It implies in this case "Spiritually over fed." Let me also offer apology for this harshness of this post.
No offense intended.
Fb, I have some thoughts I will withold to allow the stream to trickle in with this exception.
Right on, "When they have to" -they will leave their church "program" and their "buffets" and their "entertainment" and their ease their guilt churches. Who wants to hide out in the church when persecution of the church begins?
Fb, you really made me laugh on this one. Choking on their turkey legs is going to quite a sight. I don't mind being persecuted to see that.
Persecution always separates the real from the unreal. But I would pray it doesn't have to come to that.
I'd like to think that the Holy Spirit convicting hearts and minds would cause the majority of God's people in the West to become missional again. I've become aware that persecution we inflict on ourselves from the bondages and trappings of Americanized wealth and comfort may not be any better than the persecution that comes from the end of a spear. Thank the Lord it appears that many Jesus followers in the West are waking up to this reality because of the Holy Spirit beginning a work.
There are two kinds of persecution, physical and spiritual. Physical persecution, as C.S. Lewis points out in The Problem of Pain, is a powerful reminder that the Spiritual world is real and very important. If we could construct an environment where the spiritual persecution of demons and sin was real, the reminder of physical persecution would not be needed. This is only a local solution though.
You cannot save the world, but you can save your world.
slatts,
can you comment on your last line? My world is very much a part of this world. As the resurrected Christ living in me saves my own world then He begins to save the world. That's what His work of redemption is all about...and that's why he calls me to be a missional disciple.
Curt, your paragraph is exactly what I meant. God will save the world through the spheres of influence we have. Most likely I cannot change the soul of America, but I can change a piece of it.
Another and perhaps worse terrorist attack may happen before there is cultural change in all America, but for my own sphere of influence, I'd like to make it so physical persecution is unnecessary.
If we are not motivated, driven, or obedient to the purposes of the Great Commission now - we won't be motivated with persecution. Why would persecution move the religious off their lazy butts into the world and not into hiding? I say they will keep retreating from the world and into hiding with or without persecution.
Also, when the early Church received persecution it was because the Church was a threat to the religious establishment. A comfortable church (America) is not nor will she ever be a threat.
Also, the ones who will be persecuted are those of us who are not content with status quo. The ones who challenge the business as usual mentality will be attacted. Those who insist on protecting the institution will be the ones who persecute the rest of us disciple driven multipliers.
The persecution will come from the religious before it ever comes from the outside. When the church in America is threatened -you and I will be persecuted. They will not be persecuted because you have to do something by way of kingdom advancement to be noticed as a threat to someone.
Other cults and religions don't see Christianity as threat and until we claim their ground back -we don't need to worry much.
Become Great Commissional disciple multipliers and then watch the religious chew you up and spit you out. "What do you mean -we don't need buildings, budgets and more butts in our Church?" Echos of death!
thanks bob for your thoughts.
if people aren't motivated now - persecution won't motivate them - however, it will eliminate them from the "churched" crowd. as newly "unchurched" people - maybe they will become the target of truly missional activity and discover through relationship with missional Christ followers just what it means to be a disciple/follower of Jesus who engages the culture with the gospel together in community with other Christ followers.
does that make any sense?
Missional Transformation is the only hope for America.
Dave- It makes sense, I just wish we had some persecution then. Also, your comments identify the institutional "come and see" or "attractional" model or "let's just go to church" as a major threat to being missional. Is that true? I appreciate you challenging thoughts. Keep writing as we flesh this out.
I have two feet.
2 feet can be in the institutional church..OR
2 feet can be in the missional movement OR
1 can have a foot in both.
Which foot needs to be where? Can it work if we have a foot in both streams?
I still hold to the position that persecution will not make us missional but rather it will make us hide out even more. By this I mean, who wants the world to know you are a Christ follower (which will result in persecution) if we aren't showing the world now who Jesus is without perecution?
I'll follow the link!
Frost and Hirsch think that the attractional church model is opposed to the missional/incarnational approach to Christianity. "The Come-To-Us stance taken by the attractional church is unbiblical. It's not found in the Gospels or the Epistles. Jesus, Paul, the disciples, the early church leaders all had a Go-To-Them mentality." (p 19)
I do not believe that all institutional or traditional or contemporary churches have adopted an attractional model. Many have not. I think you can have one foot in each if you want to, Bob.
However, I am concerned about the dangers of Attractionalism – an evangelistic approach that focuses on inviting someone to church to meet Jesus. This approach is definitely not "missional."
My passion is to work with the whole body of Christ to multiply churches all over the place. Hopefully, these "churches" that are multiplying will have a clear sense of Jesus' mission and believers will see themselves as missionaries to their neighborhoods, workplaces, and communities.
Dave said: I do not believe that all institutional or traditional or contemporary churches have adopted an attractional model. Many have not. I think you can have one foot in each if you want to, Bob.
Bob says, Now we are getting somewhere. I am with you on your sentence above. But I would add a word of caution here - the attraction churches are more and more the majority in America. I would also caution those who read here that there is a difference (I think) between a foot in the missional movement and a foot in the attraction church wave. You cannot have one foot in both "Missional and Attraction" because they are opposite extremes and agreeably not biblical. In fact, attraction models are hindering the disciples making disciples mandate for more reasons than I have time to share. As for one foot in the institution and one in the missional movement -again I am part of the institution as you are -but we are not part of the problem. We are not pushing for buildings budgets and more butts over the mission and purposes of the Great Commission. Are we?
we don't need more authentic followers of Jesus -which are not largely getting anyway! We need authentic disciple multipliers instead. One demands fall into the crowd. The other demands that we live like Jesus incarnationally to be be successful for Him.
By the way...You and I will be persecuted by the non-missional churches. You try bucking them for not owning the Great Commission personally, you try telling them the greatest and best performance to get more of the stated (even at the expense of other churches) is not biblical. You tell them that making good members is not better than making more and better disciples. You tell them that their church location is not the church. And you know what? You will be persecuted if not today wait six more months.
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