Monday, January 01, 2007

New Year's Day - Deeper thoughts

In "The Shaping of Things to Come" by Michael Frost and Alan Hirsch I see a fresh perspective from the authors and the inclusion of several thoughts by from Philip Yancy. "As Philip Yancy says in His remarkable book, 'The Jesus I Never Knew', In church we affirmed Jesus as 'the only begotten Son of God, begotten of His Father before all worlds...Very God of Very God'...But these creedal statements are light years removed from the Gospels' accounts of Jesus growing up in a Jewish family in the agricutural town of Nazareth."

Frost and Hirsch continue, "It is our contention that by focusing on developement of the speculative doctrines, the early church lost the vital focus on the historical and practical implications of the faith. Mission and discipleship as such became marginal to theological correctness. Orthopraxy gave way to orthodoxy..."

"What is more interesting is that none of the creeds get to talk at all on right living, the very topic the Bible cannot seem to talk enough about. In its Hellenistic bent, doctrine shifted from acting right to thinking right. This has been referred to as the distinction between orthopraxy and orthodoxy. Orthopraxy is a system that believes that right living provides the context for us to embrace right thinking... The reverse is called Orthodoxy. It assumes that if we change a person's thinking, we will change the way he or she lives."

Let me add: This has something huge to do with why we have a "going to church" over "being the Church" mentality in America. We go to church and sit facing the front while our pastor shares a one way dialogue/teaching with us. So often we teach more but aren't leaning more because we are not doing what we have been taught. If you don't believe me tell your congregation they must own the Great Commission in their actions. You'll find that many if not most church members would rather "live to learn" rather than "learn to live". Perhaps this is why the average church member can quote the Great Commission mandate - but it is rarely if ever seen in their actions.

Hirsh & Frost say, "We have to recover a sense of the ultilmate meaning of our actions if we are going to become a truly missional-incarnational church."

Let me add another few thoughts for reflection: The Hellenistic influence in the creeds could be part of (or is) the culprit. In my ministry I fought hard to get"truth in action" but members were often content with just filling their minds with new truth. The older we live inside the church the more we fill our heads with knowledge. Living to Learn has largely replaced Learning to Live. By the way, did you know that Hitler knew the Bible inside and out? He knew Truth very well but it never showed up his life. He used his knowledge of scriptures to gain credibility with the church even thought he never applied all his head knowlege.

Do we really believe knowing Scriptural truth is enough? Do the Creedal statements really leave out the orthopraxy or "being and doing scriptural truth in our actions?

Is it true that we have become a teaching church so much so at the expense of being the Church by living incarnationally (by representing Jesus) in the world?

13 Comments:

At January 01, 2007 12:04 PM, Blogger Slatts said...

I think the reflection set up here is not quite in order. The idea that the creedal statements (specifically quoted from the Nicene creed) moved the emphasis away from orthopraxy to orthodoxy is unwarranted.

I agree with your point in a certain regard. Just the other day I told a friend that doctrine is far less important than love.

But, that said, orthodoxy is of paramount importance, especially the controversy against the arians, which is where the Nicene creedal statements develop. If a large an influential portion of believers in your "church" or "group" were going around bringing people to a Jesus that was not God, then it becomes a orthopraxy (right-action) to correct the error.

Doctrine is for the mind, and the tendency for people to consider learning as holiness must always be checked, but doctrine is a positive influence as well. Truth (doctrine) allows for deeper action. What is more important: love or truth? love is higher, but we want "true love". Orthodoxy serves and vitalizes orthopraxy as a foundation. Without right-doctrine you cannot have right-action. Actions follow thoughts, and right-thoughts lead to right actions.

 
At January 01, 2007 1:04 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Orthodoxy serves and vitalizes orthopraxy as a foundation. Without right-doctrine you cannot have right-action. Actions follow thoughts, and right-thoughts lead to right actions.

I agree with slatts. If action don't follow thoughts you have dead faith. That means that you have nothing.

 
At January 01, 2007 1:45 PM, Blogger Bob Carder said...

I will address one aspect for sure. Especially in the American church we have orthodoxy (knowlege of doctrinal issues) at the expense of orthopraxy (actions flowing out of truth).

The issue I don't want you to miss is we often do not action on truth.

In America we are stuck on doctrine with little action. Or we live to learn (it) rather than learn to live (it).

Hellenistic influence was present in the creedal statements. There is a huge imbalance from right thinking to right living.

I know that believers to day in large part would rather know the right stuff. Do you really think we are doing the right stuff we know?

Slatts you are missing the point. I never said Orthodoxy is a bad or wrong thing. I am saying orthodoxy without orthopraxy is useless.

 
At January 01, 2007 1:49 PM, Blogger Bob Carder said...

Feba, you describe an ideal, but it is no widely followed.

The point is that in America and in exported American Christianity we widely miss living out the truth daily and in the world.

We need both not one over the other. I do believe both are on the same level and are tied together and are evident in the life of Jesus and New Testament. You can't have one without the other or one over another. They are inseparable if we are going to develop authentic Christ following disciple multipliers.

Having read your comments to date I will be shocked if you do not hold this same view.

 
At January 01, 2007 1:57 PM, Blogger Bob Carder said...

Slatts, we have rituals, methods and traditions in the church that I would not consider orthopraxy or orthodoxy. Of course some are while some are not.

Anyway, we largely miss living (orthopraxy) in the world wherespent most of His time.

By the way, some of our orthodoxy while we think is right it may not or may likely not be right. We will all be a bit surprised to get to heaven and realize some of what we argue over is not valid interpretation.

Read "A Generous Orthodoxy" by Brian McLaren for one of the biggest orthodoxy challenges of your life. Let's major on the majors and lead the church to "learn to live it". (Right learning on the majors and clear non negotiables and living them in right actions.)

Let's keep up the dialogue.

 
At January 01, 2007 7:37 PM, Blogger Curt said...

Bob,
I appreciate your comments on this one...and it's certainly a dialogue that will probably never be resolved...yet should be frequently visited. I have found something useful in my approach to this conversation whenever it comes up. Feel free to visit www.followtherabbi.com and then click on "our philosophy" and then click on "what does it mean to think Hebrew?" God did choose to begin to interact with a certain type of people in a certain type of geographical/cultural setting...and I believe that should certainly have a heavy influence on our conversation regarding this material. Vanderlaan does a great job of comparing/contrasting the Greek and Hebrew ways of thinking and experiencing God. Hey, by the way...thanks a lot for your call last week. I'll give you a ring in the next week sometime.

 
At January 02, 2007 12:11 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Most of what needs to be said has been said, but I just wanted to add that I don't think McLaren's Generous Orthodoxy is the best place to look for answers.

I read this book in a discussion group, and we found it to be tedious and unclear. Either he's saying nothing new or he's saying things that undermine the foundations of Christianity.

McLaren correctly points out that our orthopraxy should be more of a focus, but he muddies his points by setting up false antitheses and knocking down straw men. All I got out of it were his interpretations of different denominations and how his experiences have affected him. There's no coherent statement for where we should go from here.

D.A. Carson has a solid book on the Emergent Church and specifically talks about McLaren and that particular work.

Personally, I don't believe that emphasis on orthodoxy leads to disemphasis on orthopraxy. One can get bogged down in thinking, but one who loves the Lord will live out those beliefs. Many today think that belief doesn't entail action, but we should know that action is defined in faith itself. I can't pinpoint why people think faith is completely internal, but I don't think pointing the finger at orthodoxy solves the problem.

http://www.tektonics.org/whatis/whatfaith.html

 
At January 02, 2007 1:03 PM, Blogger Bob Carder said...

NTwrightfan - If we have not de-emphasized orthopraxy then why do we believe in the Great Commission and it's truth purposes and then largely ignore the action part?

Do you really see the larger view of the church in general that largely ignores personal responsibility to make disciples who make disciples?
I still contend that Orthopraxy is widely ignore because our focus is on Orthodoxy.

In our Healthy Church Initiative we focus on Changed Hearts, Changed Minds and Changed Lifestyles. All three must be on the same level of importance.

I just present the idea through Hirsch and Frost that Hellenistic influence widely missed and influenced our deminished Orthopraxy in the church.

 
At January 02, 2007 1:42 PM, Blogger Rick Dugan said...

It is neither right doctrine nor right practice that make us disciples of Jesus. It is faith. Trust. Relationship. Without faith it is impossible to please God.

 
At January 02, 2007 1:56 PM, Blogger Bob Carder said...

Rick, add to faith, Obedience because those with faith should follow with obedience.

Faith in God is - Orthodoxy
Living in obedience is - Orthopraxy.

We need both.

However one may argue what is -
What orthodoxy is clear and non-negotiable and what orthopraxy is a true expression of acting on the mandates of scripture.Action sometimes gets dilluted, sadly.

 
At January 03, 2007 12:01 AM, Blogger Rick Dugan said...

Faith without works is dead. In other words, it is non-existant. You can't have faith without obedience, but you can have obedience without faith. As I survey the gospels, I don't see Jesus focusing on teaching his disciples what to do. He focuses on teaching them to trust him with their lives, which always results in a different way of living. Obedience that comes from faith comes from the heart.

 
At January 03, 2007 1:44 PM, Blogger Bob Carder said...

Rick, I see Jesus doing both in the record of His life. It wasn't one or the other. I insist that both are at the same level. Both are needed and without the other it is not valid. (Orthodoxy and Orthopraxy)

Obedience with faith won't work.
Faith without Obedience won't work.

My point is that we have a church in America that lays great claims on having Faith in Jesus. At the same time His (Jesus)very life is not lived in the world where He lives through us. We have a compartmentalized Christianity. We go to church that's a compartment, we go to work that's a compartment and on.

We know the Great Commission is for the church -that's right thinking but then we do not own or live it out personally in our lives. Faith? Obedience?

We have right thinking -we have neglected the supremacy of the Great Commission owned and being fulfilled in our lives.

Are you saying that we have a faith problem in America? Do you mean to say that if we are not fulfilling the purposes of the Great Commission we don't have faith? Are you saying that if we have faith we will naturally obey this Great Commission command/mandate for all?

Interesting dialogue for sure.

 
At January 03, 2007 6:19 PM, Blogger Rick Dugan said...

I think your last questions get at what I'm saying. Consciously we tend to equate faith with correct doctrine, though I think we'd be amazed at the wacky doctrines believed by many in our churches (most have never even heard of the Nicene Creed). Subconsciously we tend to equate faith with adherence to evangelical subculture. If they look (and vote) like one of us, then they're one of us.

But faith is really trust. You can't really trust God with your life without obeying Him, which is why faith without works us not faith. It's not even possible.

You can't trust God without interacting with Him (relationship) and growing in your knowledge of Him (doctrine) as a result. The problem comes when we try to have doctrine without faith or obedience without faith (legalism).

I suspect (and my own ministry fleshes this out) that when people are living in a 24/7 relationship with God, actually trusting Him with the decisions and circumstances of their lives, that obedience to all Christ has commanded is the natural fruit.

Of course we have to obey Christ by actually teaching what He has commanded but this must always be in the context of pointing people to a living and vital relationship grounded in trust. Actually, this is the foundation of any functional relationship.

 

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