Whatcha think?
Shortest post on record! Whatcha think of when you think of the church? How does your understanding of the church impact lost people you live with, work with and play with? That is, if you do any of those things.
Any brave ones out there?
posted by Bob Carder @ 10:30 PM
35 comments
35 Comments:
I think of a comfortable, middle-class group of polite people - they don't use bad language, don't drink and certainly don't smoke - who give their children expensive, church-run private educations, and plush, protected life-styles. They drive expensive European model cars, have professional jobs (or well-connected businesses) and usually holiday overseas. That's old-skool church.
Ya wanna get down wit da new skool? Well, "emergent" church goers are looser with their language - you know, the occasional bad word, but not too much, only enough to look cool - enjoy the occasional drink and maybe after dinner cigar. They use an academic like lingo to describe their "radically" different incarnational missional approach and church dna". They talks lots about bringing church to the people rather than people to church. They like variation in worship and church style, eg. a drinking establishment, place of caffeine imbibing - preferably a place that attracts people with substance addictions. They like to segment, divide and intrically analyze their "target audience" to the extent that if you don't fit a particular sub-cultural profile, you'll never be welcome amongst them.
One thing both groups have in common: the couldn't give a toss about the poor, the marginalised or living in real Christian community.
David, I sure pray the last paragraph isn't true and if it is, let's dig in together and change that. Jesus did all that you describe, except for the occasional swear word. Or did He?
We know God's Name is very sacred and never to be used in a slang or any modification of such and `Jesus would never slip on that one. But, what about the other? This might get things rolling as if Dave's comments won't! Sarcasm implied!
David, I think you're pretty much on target with this one. Too much emerging church stuff is really just a variation on seeker sensitive - another attempt to be cool. This is why I argue (over and over) that to focus on structuring or deconstructing church is really just flip sides of the same coin. Personally, I think it's a waste of time to argue about whether or not we should have buildings or paid staff. Let's get back to allowing Jesus to shape our lives and those who are sharing life with us.
Bob, I don't know that you should dismiss David's statement that neither give a rip about the poor or living in true community.
One can be "emergent" and not be part of the disciples making disciples movement that causes people to impact directly with those they are seeking to reach.
And clearly, one can be old school and never impact with the world. Just because it's "new" and part of the emergent group diesn't mean it is anything more than an affectation -- the putting on of the "latest and greatest" rather than the "tried and true."
Where's Christ? This remains the central question unanswered (or is it?) in David's post.
I don't see what you're doing fitting into either of those two "camps".
Oh, wait, Rick already answered it better than me. Oh well, I'm posting anyway to drive up your count. :)
Mike, You are right in the sense that what we are doing is engaging a disciple making movement that leads to God birthing Churches (the Church = Christ followers)who personally own the making of disciples in or within their passion outside the four walls of a "building" often call the church but rather,in the community where lost people live, work and play!
As for the poor, I believe many are reaching out to them but I also believe some are not. At any rate we must do better as Jesus modeled for us.
As for Rick, I don't care if you have buildings or paid pastors. Of course we need leaders (paid or not)and places to gather as the entire body (almost free) and as smaller gathers in the community where others gather and in homes. We should not go to gather, but rather, we should gather to go.
I argue bigger buildings, better programs and large budgets and butts in pews because these things can become the mission and these things can and have hindered what Christ demands of all Christ followers.
In Africa, missional movements that were fluid have often stopped when they got a building of their own. In the west, when Constantine made Christianity the official state religion again a fluid disciple making move of God became institutional. In China on the other hand, no buildings, just a disciples making disciples mission.
There is still room to argue about the need for buildings. We can fulfill the mission without the millions invested in safe places for the chosen and sometimes frozen.
I know where David is coming from, but, I would like to hear more about the emergent movement he describes and tell me where the movement is leading disciples to make disciples by living incarnational lives in the world.
In the emergent realm, is disciples making disciples the main thing or not?
Can't answer that question since I'm not in it. But I can say in many ways it seems to be becoming, in its own way, institutional.
It has leaders. Web sites. Publications. Conferences. Training.
I would ask David a question: Which Emergent church did you visit to come to the conclusion you make? Did you walk with them long enough to build relationships with those people to see what they are really doing?
Which institutional/traditional church did you visit? and likewise did you attend enough to really see what they were up to?
While I dont discount your statement, as I believe that is often the case as well. I sense that your statement is stereotypical, and that you discount all for the sake of that opinion. I can assure you that there are those out there that do care much about the poor, though many are poor themselves. and there are those that do in fact strive to live in real authentic Christian community, even if the ideology of community may differ from yours, or mine.
There is an old saying: dont judge a book by its cover... likewise dont judge a movement/church/individual because of the label "Christian".
The body of Christ is growing and the church is every single believer on the face of the earth and of course Jesus Christ is the head of the body. His plan is for the church to be one and the devil has blinded the whole world and kept America and other nations in darkness keeping us away from the Truth! Having a form of godliness, yet denying the power thereof. The Church must come together in Unity. There is only one gospel and the Acts 2 Church is the model of fellowship. He is beginning to pour out His spirit on all flesh and the raising up mighty warriors and unleashing the Kingdoms supernatural Glory. We must have the baptism of the Holy Ghost which is like a pair of tennis shoes They ALL come with tongues! The Power that raised Jesus from the dead is now in us God says so. Not Me. All things are possible for he that believes. Live in the Spirit, Walk in the spirit, war in the spirit. Have a child-like-faith. I like your Planting. Thank God that the Shift in the atmosphere has begun and the true ministry of Jesus Christ is growing. Follow after Love, and compassion. The manifestation and the gifting are for all who believe and these signs shall follow... May the Lord bless your ministry sir.
Something in David's comment resonates with me, and as a person who's dead set on being light in this world, I've got to find an answer for it. I'm not going to debate either side of this argument, but raise some questions: both for myself and all of you fine individuals (not for the sake of a posted answer, but for self-evalutation)...
1) Why the jargon? We wouldn't use it around unbelievers, so why must we impress each other with it?
2) Are we passionate about a fad (a method), or are we seriously willing to respond in obedience through the direction of the Holy Spirit?
3) Is our agenda so important to us that we will support it at the expense of being divisive with our fellow brothers in Christ?
4) If holiness is the state of being "set apart," to what extent do we decide when to look, act, and consume like the world, and when not to?
I don't believe that any of us intentionally operate under a "new skool" model because we're merely seeking an alternative, but I'm pretty sure that the "old skoolers" felt the same way about their model as the emergent church does about its own, displaying the same amount of fervor and passion, along with the same willingness to defend their model to the death.
When I think of the church, I think of how beautiful it was in my childhood, and how easy it was to serve God through love and joy, without the necessity of all of these questions. In adulthood we seem to have a great desire to cloud up the simplicity of the Gospel. I'm personally tired of allowing this argument to facilitate my own idleness.
I watched a movie this weekend called Second Chances with Micheal W. Smith. It showed two very different expressions of church. The big growing mega church and the poor inter city church. The movie was pretty hard on the mega church and with good reason in some cases. But I truly believe that you can find God fearing, risk taking, sold out believers in both camps. We (the masses) tend to follow Church fads or trends because we want to do what it good and what is right. Being "Totally Sold Out" to God is a hard thing for many (self included) to grasp. So we follow the crowd with our good intentions. I feel that to often we can look back 5-10 years and see that all our good intentions just put us through the motions of playing church. Old or new skool, the trap is the same. I long to commune with God. If I had just 2 minutes a day with face to face conversation with the Almighty, how would that change my attitude toward church? Jesus said I do what the Father does. I read and pray and yet still long for a fellowship that can bring real passion into an ordinary life. Our prayers will determine the answers we get to many of these questions.
Thanks for your time.
Yes, we are speaking in generalities here, which may be the point. You can find disciple-making taking place in conventional, institutional churches and you can find nondiscipleship in emerging churches, house churches, etc. Both building eccesiastical structures (physical and organizational) or deconstructing them can be a distraction from making disciples.
Hey, just remember that when I speak of disciple making I am not speaking of it under the umbrella of the church structure or institution. I am speaking of discipleship as the way Jesus intended for us and that means each of us are to live out our passions with the purpose of showing people who Jesus is, so that Jesus can flow through us to reach the masses who reach the masses who reach the masses.
The church regardless of the structure often does a great job institutionalizing discipleship as a corporate thing (with some success) while relational disciple making is often put on the back burner for allot of reasons. This is what drives my blood pressure up.
I don't want to know what your church is doing to make disciples! But rather, I would love to know what you (part of the Church) are doing to make disciples.
Disciple making the way Jesus taught and modeled for us is definitely old school.
I'm in the Body of Christ, striving to live as Jesus would in such a way that causes many to come to Christ and become disciples who do the same. My life investment must be in the lives of others where they live, work and play.
Twan, I sure hope no one is risking unity over this thing. Although I do believe that when a new movement emerges and is even Holy Spirit led we do often hold on defensively (sometimes) to what is familiar. Someone who tries to break out of the box into unchartered and different territory is often labeled and those running ahead in the old school tend to be labeled as slow or unwilling.
I keep going back to the making of disciples. Is it just corporate? Is it corporate at the expense of being personal? Do all Christ followers personally own the Great Commission? I said personally. Do we spend more time with the already reached or are we purposely living where people live, work and play? Is going to church the main thing? Or is being the church the main thing? Can we have two main things?
I'm strongly suggesting that as we are BEING the Church in the old school New Testament sense, all the other stuff flows out of BEING INCARNATIONALLY PRESENT and in tune with God IN THE LIVES OF THE UNREACHED.
I caution you here: Whatever systems or structures or labels or tools we use or engage, must not distract us from the Mission and Purpose God gave to all of us in Matthew 28. It was, is and remains a Supreme Command, otherwise I'd like to know why we are here gumming ourselves to death and feeling really good about our holy lives.
We are not the people who cross to the other side when we an unclean person, or are we?
My previous caution wasn't just for Twan as it appears, it for the blog land world wide.
Here is my stream of consciouness when I read the question:
The Gospel of Christ changes everything about who we are and how we live in the world. I am a person who is completely de-constructed and renewed by the story and work of Jesus, but at the same time totally imperfect and unable to keep up with and live with all the changes the Christ has wrought in me.
The journey is best pursued together. The Church should be a group of people who welcome the skeptical, the curious, the annoyed, and the seeker because we don't have it all figured out and we realize that we never will. We would seek to be humble because we are renewed only by the mercy of God, and not because of anything that we ourselves have done.
I believe that living for God is hard and that living a life of love is counter-intuitive. It's like going down a one way street the wrong way — and the only way to do that is to get in a convoy.
All things belong to God. God is the creator of all things. God is the only thing that simply just “IS”. I celebrate all that is life and part of this creation and seek to serve God with all my gifts, abilities, and opportunities.
All of these things are often exploited and used selfishly, and yet all can be used to love God and love people and serve effectively in this world.
Therefore, we should seek to do all things with excellence for God's pleasure.
It surprises me how much we humans think in extremes, and how often these extremes lead to blaming someone, instead of just seeking to fix the inherant problem.
Now, I'm not saying we shouldn't rant or speak out-- that is how change is affected, but all too often, we will look at what is wrong on the other extreme, instead of doing what is right and advocating it in word and in deed.
James said that true religion is caring for the poor, orphans, and widows; and maintaining a holy life that is separate from the world. I think, if you can look at your local expression of the church (from the top down to the individual person), and say with assured confidence that your church is fulfilling true religion AND empowering the individual Church (big "C") member to do the same, then you should keep on truckin'.
But, if your local expression of the church (regardless of method or model) is not doing anything to enable true religion-- corporately or individually, I think there is something worth speaking out about.
That was long, and I have class here in a few minutes, so, sorry-- no spell check. haha
Be well,
Jessica
Bob,
A friend of mine who is maybe 25 years old asked me an interesting question...she was recently married for a period of 6 or 8 months, and then divorced. She's now in seminary. She's battling with the question of re-marriage...she has a friend telling her she never should re-marry, and she's trying to figure out God's will through it all.
I told her that her friend is being ridiculous.
Anyway, this is far from your typical topic on this blog, but I was just curious what you and maybe some of your fellow bloggers would tell her, should she ask you your opinion on the matter.
Happy valentine's day!
Adam
Adam -remarriage is a touch issue. There are valid and very clear instructions for allowing remarriage.
What are the circumstances for the divorce? We have a couple in our district, the pastor and wife were divorced -we love them and they are doing a great job.
If the answer is too personal just email me.
God's word is clear in these issues for remarriage: Abandonment & Adultery allow for remarriage. Also was the divorce before she accepted Christ ! Adultery needs to be understood more deeply than the obvious and being abandoned is pretty clear. There is also the abuse factor I would like to probe with you or your friend.
Beware of what other bloggers will say on this issue. This is another one of those deeply misunderstood and deeply hurtful issues where certain sins are condemned more than others while remaining on the same level as all other sins.
The church has abused divorced people even in clear scriptural grounds for the divorce!
Just a though, for Adam, and maybe others: Why can God forgive Murder, and allow a murderer into ministry... or any number of sins and people readily accept them as forgiven, yet when someone says they are divorced (before or after Christ...sorry Bob) that we cannot allow them into ministry, or allow that mistake, for what ever reason it was made to be forgiven. I believe scripturally if our sin is as far away as the east is from the west, and when God looks at us He sees the righteousness of Jesus because of His great sacrafice of shed blood for us, then why cant we see God can and does allow for changed lives who remarry, after their sin of divorce (if it was for un-Biblical reasons).
I hate to stir it up on this valentines day but this has always been a real issure for me as a Pastor, I have seen numerous< God fearing, God called (evidenced by their gifting and faithfulness) being turned away by mainstream denominations because of divorce and remairrage. I can say the same about smoking, and having the occasional drink, but that can we will open later over a glass of wine and a cigar :)
Just my 2 cents, which are only worth about 1.3 cents in todays economy but you get them anyway!
I say let her love and let hewr serve and let God be glorified in the lives she touches!
HI Bob, I wanted to remind you that when you were in the "buiding" that you helped many to come to know our Lord and Savior. You did plant seeds for others to be come a diciples. I need a church life, to be with others who believe to worship our KING. It helps me to go out into this world where everyday it seems to be coming more upside down. I like a church who is not polictically correct and not afraid to preach the truth. I fear we are losing that in the main stream churches of today. Hearing the word, corporately,reading of the Word, meeting with another, helps me to plant seeds where ever the Holy Spirit leads me too. I believe that if you let the Lord lead you it doesn't matter where you are. IF the truth is not there, whether you are on a street corner or in a building, it won't get you into the Kingdom. Christ is not all about Love that so many preach, it has many facets. We need to fear our Lord and walk in his ways. That is the light others will want to know about. Peace, contentment and a genuine caring for our fellow sisters and brothers.
There are many new age ideas that are coming out of the wood work. (in buildings, and on picnic tables)The latest being "the secret" all about you and what you do can make the differance in your life. The secret written by a women sitting on a beach somewhere. 2nd Tim. end days will be lovers of self. this surely is a good example. The true secret can be found in the Psalms. Just had to add my 2cents worth.
Adam,
I'm a divorced pastor. Not only was I a Christian when I went through my divorce, but I was in ministry. My experience is that many evangelical Christians don't have a clue how to handle divorce or divorced Christians. We pull a few verses out of context, create some laws to govern our decisions, and then move on. It's incredibly dehumanizing as well as unbiblical.
Feel free to email my privately if you'd like: cyprusdugan@yahoo.com
Carl was accurate when he said "I sense that your statement is stereotypical, and that you discount all for the sake of that opinion".
Yes folks, that opening comment was rather mischievous. However, it some serious discussion followed, so I hope it served some purpose.
Hey Guys (Carl and Rick)
Don't shoot me! But, what are the clear Biblical grounds for divorce and remarriage? We all believe a divorced person can serve in ministry or at least should be allowed to. We all know this is a place where believers fall down in living like Jesus! I know that Rick speaks from deep pain brought upon him by other so called, "called ones".
Now tell me what Jesus says about this issue! Can you? Will you?
You guys are Truth tellers so I value your response here. Let's take it out further!
Anonymous, I appreciate your kind and helpful thoughts. I'm for the Body of Christ gathering and for strong Biblical truth without wavering.
What I find myself gagging over is what I call Churchianity! Something believers do while they go to and do church. We are so great at going to and doing church.
On the other hand, I love Christianity, as believers become the Church living authentically in the world and making disciples as the main thing. It's a fluid movement of the Holy Spirit.
You can either go to church to "gather" . Or you can gather as the Church to "Go".
Far to many who love church life, hide under the shadow of the steeple or under the wings of some super saint or inside the four wall of the building. There are many who unlike you, refuse to venture out.
Carl, all sins are forgiven and are all on the same level. All sinners can serve in ministry. The issue is re: divorce and remarriage and not serving in ministry. We do agree on this one for sure.
What does Jesus say about divorce and remarriage?
ok Bob, I'm gonna play devils advocate for just a moment (not the best choice of words here :) )
We all no Jesus said unless one party was unfaithful then divorce is not allowed. But Jesus also said "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."
ummm. who here can honestly say they have "NEVER" since their mairrage not looked in that manner on anyone else.
guess that probably means divorce is justified.
as I said I was playing devils advocate simply for the sake of a point. we spend so much time trying to define if its ok or not to remarry when their are a lot of more important issues. Oh and Jesus' response on divorce was in responce to a legalistict religious leader who wanted to trap Him, not to a woman who was really trying to serve Him and be fruitful.
Love ya Bob!
and I am NOT a liberal, nor do I condone divorve for a whim. I just think Grace is bigger than we grasp and we ought to extend some every now and then
Hey Carl, there are many cultural reasons for Jesus saying what he did. Husbands were known to divorce their wives for burning supper. Women were deeply devalued!
I did quote some predominate reasons for the justification of divorce as are common in the theological statements and matters of faith and practice in the church today. However I suspect deeply that there is more to the story and I'm not a liberal either.
However, I agree with the spirit of your discussion in that we need to probe more deeply into the teaching of Jesus.
You are admired for jumping out naked and exposed for the fiery darts of the church!
Thanks Bob, I am striving to be Christlike, not churchlike. I am striving to live Holy because He is Holy, not behave a certain way because the church says that is holiness.
It is whay I feel so strongly that the church has done more to alienate people by its list of "holiness is" than it has to reconcile people through relationship.
Jesus came into an impure unholy world, and he transcended it with His holiness yet never alienated anyone, but called all to relationship, and He transformed it through His love.
Oh that we could be like that, and lead others to be like that instead of boycotting and screaming about sinners sinning, and lost souls acting lost. We spend so much time wasted calling others to act like we want them to because we dont like their behavior, and Jesus invited them to dine with Him. and when a life was changed like Matthew he invited all his sinner buds to meet Jesus, who then dined with them as well.
well I'll get off my box now, please dont stone me as a heretic just yet, I am just looking for real Jesus outside a fake church (no offense please)
Bob, the topic is really too big to fully discuss here, but here are two things I've learned.
1. Divorce is the result of the hardness of hearts. God instituted divorce in the Law of Moses to protect women from husbands who were abusing their covenant obligations. Ideally, divorce is meant to protect people in a fallen world and free them to marry again.
2. Unfortunately, in both Jesus' day and ours, divorce has been used to break covenants rather than defend victims of broken covenants. This is the kind of divorce that God hates and Jesus doesn't recognize.
Over 30% of all Americans age 21 and older have been through a divorce. That is a huge demographic, and it is a shame that church leaders are not better equipped to deal redemptively with divorced people and their children.
Three books every pastor should read are: Divorce and Remarriage in the Church (David Instone-Brewer), ... And Marries Another: Divorce and Remarriage in the Teaching of the New Testament (Craig Keener), and Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage in the Bible (Jay Adams).
To practical help in ministering to divorced people I'd recommend 'When the Vow Breaks: A Survival and REcovery Guide for Christians Facing Divorce' by Joseph Kniksern.
Well she told me more. Nothing adulterous happened, but she said that her husband just decided he did not really want to be married, after all. She is hopeful for her future, and is depending on God for grace, and judging from what I know, is an innocent party in this divorce. Now, Bob, would you say that she is forbidden to remarry because her husband left her? Certainly that's not what Jesus meant in Luke, is it?
The Bible doesn't speak to every divorce situation, which is why it is so dangerous to create rules based on a few prooftexts. For example, if he is a Christian the Bible says nothing about a Christian abandoning a Christian.
The Bible does talk about situations that break covenants: adultery, abandonment, and abuse/neglect. These things can be subjective, which is why it is important to have wise Christians helping to navigate the divorce.
However, in every case there is always grace. She should examine her own life to see how she can grow as a Christian through this and she needs to make time and space for healing to take place. After that, if God blesses her with another opportunity to marry then she should thank God for it.
Rick, I appreciate you very much and your wisdom is very helpful!
Blessings,
I'm all for understanding God in deeper ways. In the church we often think we have it all figured out and then I look back and see major inconsistencies in the stuff we teach or taught. But then as you stated so well, grace is never inconsistent.
I'm sad when I think about the canned answers of the church including my own.
Bob, Dot be saddened, be like Paul, "not that I have attained... but pressing on..." Paul pointedly denies that he has reached a point of non growth, but rather recognized that he was still growing in faith and Christ.
Our western church has decided we have it all figured out, we then have put what we have all figured out into a nice neat box and spoon fed that "attainedness" into the lives of others despite that many lives dont fit into that box or that pat answer.
I am still delearning all the nice boxed up answers Bible college and years in the boxed in church have fed me, as I assume you are too. lets use that saddened felling for that which we have spoon fed others over the years to motivate us to seek the depth of God and share that as we share peoples lives.
blessings
Carl, we have all been programmed and we have all been handed down to us clean, crisp and what we thought was a clear orthodoxy (system of beliefs). Your words encourage me.
We end up with arguments like Calvinism and Armenian doctrines among hundreds of things and all seem to be able to defend their positions in biblical fashion. And in the end we have a different labels and a fragmented Jesus family.
Who cares about such trivial nonsense if we can accomplish the main thing of becoming and leading others to be/become Christ followers who obey all the commands Jesus has taught them? We need to cut the crap and move beyond minor majoring. Or, is it majoring on the minors?
Let's major on the non negotiable mandates and get beyond the trivial nonsense that makes little difference when we stand before Jesus! Let's begin by majoring on the Great Commission mandates for all Christ followers.
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