True Vine is Resurrection proof of Easter
Our new True Vine Missionary Church met together to worship God on resurrection Sunday. On my way to the gathering I was reminded that no one gathering with us this Easter could possible mix up the reason we were gathering. In our time together it seems Jesus is all we have. We have no great service to replicate or duplicate to attract people we just let God lead and as usual the resurrected Jesus showed up in Holy Spirit power.
Let me give you a few observations. Pastor Terry opened our time together with a welcome and the reading of an email regarding the condition of the Ortmann family in the tragic death of our Superintendent's wife Lorri. Supt. Steve's email was filled with praise and victory as the family continues to deal with great human loss. Pastor then invited me to share where I am in the process of healing from my burns. I shared words of gratitude to the family and to God. I am healing, although I have a couple places on the graft that concerns me but overall it appears I am healing on target.They asked what I needed and I told them I need prayer and that is really all I need right now. What followed broke me to tears...
Pastor asked the Church to gather around us and lay hands on us and pray for God's touch to meet our needs. You mean you will do that right now and let the order of the service wait? I don't recall experiencing anything like this on any other Easter service. I was deeply moved, so much so that I could barely hold back the gusher because I am not yet sure how to handle those gushers publicly. I am privately gushing as I try to write this blog post. Here I am in an Easter gathering to worship Christ and then the living Christ begins to move in powerful ways as God moves through believer after believer and even through small children who came up to pray and lay hands on us. What a picture of the resurrection of Jesus, because He is alive - He lives and ministers and works through us to accomplish His will and purpose.
Pastor spoke about Easter worship and we discovered that worship is an act of service or obedience and sacrifice. It's not a "let's go to worship" thing. It is "as we go worshiping we actually worship Him when we serve Him in complete obedience and often with great sacrifice. I smiled as my wife Michelle wrote on her paper next to me, "A worshiper is not a SQUATER but a worker." Boy can you imagine the Easter sqauters out there?
The Martin family, Steve and Judy their grown young adults Zachary and Stephanie led our songs as Jason Hughes hit the keyboard running. They did a great job and in the end it was Jesus who got the glory for the humility and love that was given in our time of singing to Him. Two elders (Steve & Fletch)led communion and wow these guys took me into a communion walk I had never experienced before. Luther tried to get the word out on the priesthood of all the believers and therefore the reformation is still not complete. We have places called churches filled with people who know Jesus but are never viewed as little priests for Jesus! This saddens me. Why have a clergy lead communion when the Church is full of believers described as the priesthood of all believers who could likely do it better? Next Sunday, ask you pastor to let you lead communion and see what he says. Oh, please tell us what he says also.
I left encouraged and loved by my new True Vine Church family, a Body of Christ and not a building for Christ. This family understands the meaning of Being the Church daily and not just going to church weekly (weakly).
When Easter Service was over what did you or others talk mostly about?
Was it Jesus? How many people we had? The choir? The Message? Where did you see God work his power in transformational ways? The decorations? What are your relfections?
posted by Bob Carder @ 5:18 PM
13 comments
13 Comments:
Hallelujah! Easter Resurrection is still burning in me. Jesus is alive -- and living in me. I am always humbled this time of year by that fact...not that He's alive, but that He is living in me. Me ... if you only knew me, you would know what an act of grace that is.
Bob, you said: "Why have a clergy lead communion when the Church is full of believers described as the priesthood of all believers who could likely do it better? Next Sunday, ask you pastor to let you lead communion and see what he says. Oh, please tell us what he says also."
I suggest you take some time and see what someone who "labored side by side with [St Paul]" (Phil 4:3) would say about this. His name is Clement and he was the fourth Bishop of Rome ordained by Peter. The relevant sections are 40-44 in "Clement's first letter to the Corinthians" (which turns out is also his only letter).
Also, St John's disciple Ignatius also authoritatively teaches on this issue in his letter to the Smyrneans (8:1-2).
Nowhere does the Bible affirm that the sacrifice of the Lord's table ought to be offered by any believer by virtue of the priesthood of all believers. I suspect your readiness to abandon the ancient order is because of the abandonment of the ancient teaching on the Eucharist (which can also be found in that same letter of Ignatius').
Jesus said - 'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.' "
you say "Nowhere does the Bible affirm that the sacrifice of the Lord's table ought to be offered by any believer"
I disagree -
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
Mat 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
Jesus taught the Apostles to "do this in rememberance of Me" if any man later on decided not to teach their disciples to do this - they did not follow their instructions and were therefore guilty of teaching the precepts of men as doctrine
PS.
There is no proof to your claim that this Clement is the Clement you specify from Phil. 4:3. It is debateable whether Clement the Pope even wrote the letter.
By the way Slatt's you really should brush up on the Reformation - we are about to have another and you aren't even up to speed on the changes from the last one.
Ps. s? I was there with Bob and so was the Holy Spirit - it was wonderful. You should try it some time.
Terry, you have made a number of errors in your reply. First, you misquoted me by leaving out the important clarifying text: “by virtue of the priesthood of all believers”. Without that section, which you omitted without warrant, the statement means something I did not say or imply and as such your comments on it are beside the point.
Second, when you say there is “no proof” that Clement is the Clement of Phil 4:3 you show your ignorance of the Church Fathers and historians. Eusebius, the first Church historian after St Luke, equates the author of First Clement to the co-worker of Paul. Also St Irenaeus, who was frequently in Rome, also equates the two. It would be hard to imagine he would be mistaken about this as it would be no doubt a great pride for the Roman Christians. I could add more names of fathers you apparently must re-read, but even that SHOULD be enough. Hearing you say there is “no proof” is like hearing Lorraine Boettner say there is "no historical evidence" Peter was ever in Rome! How he can be raised up as a "theologian" and make claims like that is beyond me. Please don't make the same mistake as Boettner, it doesn't help your credibility.
You may bring up scholars that aren’t sure that Clement was the Clement of Phil 4:3 or that he even wrote it (Such a position is completely unwarranted!), but the burden is on them to disprove that Clement is not the same as St Paul’s companion, because that is what the early Christians and church historians tell us. That burden of proof has never been met. So, there is in fact “proof” that the Clement of Rome was the Clement of Phil 4:3…you simply ignore it. I don't ignore that some scholars want to distance Clement from Paul, but I am not yet convinced by their attempts to do so.
I figure if I hang around here enough I will have a pretty good idea of what the next wave of the Protestant reformation is. I am also interested in the Catholic reformation that is going on at this point also. I am interested in what is up throughout all Christianity, we are, after all, one family.
PS. I am happy the Holy Spirit was with you at Easter, I was also overcome with great Joy in the Spirit this Easter. In any event, your invitation to “try it sometime” is appreciated.
I didn’t misquote you Slatts I quoted a portion of you. If you think the Priesthood of all believers is the issue then how about the next question?
So do we agree that all believers have the authority to administer communion or is your restated position of dependency on the Priesthood of all believers a red herring. Does the Bible support the idea that all can administer the sacraments or not? Did Jesus give us the authority or not? This is the issue here, the authority of all disciples to do all ministry or the restriction of some things to the clergy. That was Bob’s point.
I am with good theological company in disputing the accuracy of your position on Clement, they just happen to be Protestants. Just because you claim it is unwarranted does not make it so. And no I don’t want to debate it with you or see an email of all your proof because it won’t change what Christ said. No matter what any man may say, no matter if they were alive the day after Christ or the day after tomorrow, If Jesus said it, His word rules over them. Protestants rely on the Word of God for all authority. There in lies the difference. This is why we can never seem to agree it is an authority issue.
If you think by hanging around here you are going to figure out what the next wave of the “Protestant” Reformation is you are mistaken. This BLOG only fuels debate and discussion. The real reformation must be engaged on a personal level in order to understand it. If you really want to understand it you must stop trying to impose your theology on others who you know don’t agree with it and try to embrace the parts you can agree on. This is the same thing that happened in the group you left. We are Protestants here. Very little chance we will agree with your Catholic theology of the sacraments. So what is your purpose for imposing them here. Is to try to discredit? Is it to try to convert? What is the real motive? We are sharing our experiences of a live and active relationship with Christ. We experience the presence of the Holy Spirit’s power when we meet for church. Do you think your “theology” and quoting of dead authors can override our face to face experience with God Almighty? Can I convince you that fire does not burn by showing you authoritative writings of scientists that agree it will not burn?
Interesting that you claim we are all one family yet label us as the “Protestant” reformation and others as the “Catholic” reformation. If we are truly one family then shouldn’t we look at everything that is going on as “One” Reformation?
If you really want to know what is up throughout all Christianity it is a rediscovery and application of the Great Commission in the lives of all believers. It is happening in waves throughout the world and people from all religious backgrounds are dropping their theological debates and focusing on the clear teaching of Jesus to make disciples. Last month I spent two weeks with 40 people from 9 different countries and numerous religious, racial and social backgrounds. We gathered around Jesus’ Great Commission teaching and all the walls fell down. We worshipped together and cried together. We prayed together and laughed together.
Put aside the dogma and embrace the common elements of our faith and true unity can and will occur. If at that point you feel you must take communion differently than me then we will separate for that sacrament. If you think that true unity can only happen when I submit to all of your thinking then there is little chance of ever having unity.
I said that Scripture does not teach that any believer has the authority to officiate the Lord's Supper by virtue of the priesthood of all believers. That means that if a Christian does officiate the Lord's Supper, it was by some other ordination. Christ(as far as we can tell from the Bible) only directed the Apostles in this sacred order and historically it has been passed down by the sacrament of Holy Orders. No place in the Christian world did we find anyone suggesting that this order was unbiblical or in violation of the priesthood of all believers. It was understood as the order decreed and transmitted through Apostolic teaching: hence the Nicean creed records the fourth mark of the Church as "apostolic".
Terry said: "Do you think your 'theology' and quoting of dead authors can override our face to face experience with God Almighty? "
Nothing can be used to overcome the beliefs of someone that are grounded on personal experience. I have a good LDS friend who uses the same argument (the Holy Spirit convicts him in truth), and you can't reason against personal experience because it is by its nature arational. What I know from my own experience has taught me to have a great distrust in it. God imbued us with rational natures to discover truth and delve into mystery. Experiences and feelings of the sublime are only good for directing us toward action, not for defining or grounding truth. Anyone who does that runs the high risk of self-deception, something seen all too often in religious fanatics. Humility before God is honesty, perhaps the most necessary human virtue.
Terry said: "Put aside the dogma and embrace the common elements of our faith and true unity can and will occur."
I cannot put aside truth for the sake of community. You are my brother and I love you and you no doubt love me. That bond of love is our true unity. But I cannot put aside Christ's teaching, and I have no doubt that you would put aside Christ's teaching either, for anything.
You wrote much more that I would love to comment on, but for the sake of space and clarity, I will refrain. My original statement is what this is about - and that is that it is not a Biblical teaching that every Christian has the right to officiate the Lord's Supper by virtue of the priesthood of all believers.
Nice dodge - didn't answer my direct question.
You have said of me, to have made a number of errors, of being ignorant, and now compared to your LDS friend which is clearly a reference to being in a false religion. Not pullin any punches eh?
Let's compare the three of us. 1 of us says hold to the Bible and Christ's teachings as authoritative. 2 of us rely on the writings of those who came later for truth and clarity. 1 of our experiences with God are tested in light of Scripture. The other 2 do not do this alone but rely on writings of other men or discount those experiences as outright unreliable.
We disagree on the interpretation of the word all in the Great Commission. I take it to mean "all" and you take is as something else.
Remember that I asked you to put aside dogma and you proclaimed it as truth.
The one thing you do have right about me - I am a religious fanatic!
The Mt 28 commission was given to the Apostles, and as I mentioned earlier, no one else besides the Apostles seem to have been told by Christ to offer the Eucharist. It was then completely up to the Apostles how to delegate this gift and history shows exactly how they did. All you have to do is read the Church Fathers, who explain that the Apostles handed it on by ordination and that this order was willed by Christ. Neither Scripture nor Tradition (liturgical and historical) teach that all Christians have the authority to do this. It violates St. Paul's command to hold fast to oral and written traditions.
Slatts, What a shame you cannot administer communion. If you ever decide to jump onto the wave of the raging sea, you will have the ride "swim" of your life. For you to administer communion is something you must experience. You are a royal priesthood. You have the God-given right to serve, so go quit sitting and get serving.
Slatts, do not watch the movie "Luther" (A documentary) because when it was over I was sickened to my stomach over the rule and practice of Roman Catholicism. Such sinful roots!
The Luther Reformation is yet to be completed but I fear our Holy Catholic Church stands in her way. We are all priests and should all be able to serve in every function of the Church. Actually as a pastor of many years it was and is the highlight of my gathering with the church when the priesthood of ALL believers is present and working the way Jesus intended and I might add, Luther is smiling from heaven, he has to be smiling from heaven. I am glad I have lived to experience communion presented by those who are not ordained by man but ordained as priests by God. "A Royal Priesthood."
Now that I do not pastor I love being a part of the royal priesthood with the rest of you.
Terry said Put aside the dogma and embrace the common elements of our faith and true unity can and will occur. If at that point you feel you must take communion differently than me then we will separate for that sacrament. If you think that true unity can only happen when I submit to all of your thinking then there is little chance of ever having unity.
Terry I agree with most of what you are saying, but I thought we all have unity in Christ and we are asked to maintain that unity, not manufacture it?
Anon. - True unity in Christ has been destroyed by man centered institutions, denominationalism, dogma, legalism, self-righteousness, and a host of other things. What I proposed is not the unity that Christ calls us to but rather a first step in the reconciliation of the body of Christ.
We are so far from unity.
May the Spirit of God convict us all in that matter.
Bob, We all came from Israel ("such evil roots") who killed the prophets and sought pagan gods. And let us not sin in forgetting the great saints of Israel and the Catholic Church by focusing on evil. But if looking for evil in the roots, did not Luther broke a vow he made to God by marrying after consecrating his virginity to God(and encoraged his wife, an ex-nun, to do the same!). Oh noble man! See with what honor he breaks his vow to God! Evil lies in wait in the heart of all men, it is called concupiscience. Speaking of Luther, I wonder how he would react to your idea of letting everyone offer communion? He already calls your understanding of the Eucharist inspired by Satan, I bet he wouldn't be too approving.
Bob, you have yet to show me where in Scripture officiating the Lord's Supper is linked with the priesthood of all believers. You will search in vain. It is the priority of the Apostolic college.
Can someone please help my friend Slatts out on this one?
See previous post. I have yet to see Slatts prove His point on Communion and the priesthood of all believers.
Remember, I partake of communion or "The Lord's Supper" in remembrance of Him and His love and sacrifice. Any believer can do this. Even a father can lead his family in a communion or Lord's Supper remembrance!
Jesus said, "As often as you can do this, do this in remembrance of me."
You don't have to wait until mass or Sunday to do this as God leads.
Slatts, you prove your point outside of your historian friends. Use the Word of God and I'm listening.
Your fathers of faith are not more credible than those in the Word of God.
Who do you defend?
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