Wednesday, June 27, 2007

Interesting..

Dr. Hossler, President of the Missionary Church, Inc., shared the following in his leadership notes.

Dr. Hossler wrote, "Eating at Big Boy the other day, I had the privilege of talking with Dr. and Mrs. Tim Warner former missionary and President of Fort Wayne Bible College (Taylor Univeristy/FortWayne). Knowing of his interest and insight on the current movement of God worldwide, I asked him what new things he was sensing concerning the church. Was the church planting phenomenon still growing? Was the exponential growth of the church in many parts of the world still taking place? The answer to both of the questions was a strong Yes. When I asked what about the key ingredients in such a movement, Dr. Warner listed two elements: 1, Prayer 2, Power."

The Planter: When I line those two ingredients up with what I'm reading in missional movements and also in church planting here in the west these two (prayer and Holy Spirit power) are rarely mentioned as foundational priorities/realities. We see the nuts and blots and how to do it and launch it, rarely do we hear spoken with passion (in a do or die manner) that these two; Prayer and Holy Spirit Power are the only hope of ever seeing a God birthed disciple making movement.

Dr. Hossler continues, "Power: The battle between the unseen forces of good and evil rages daily behind the veil which clouds the eyes of mortals. However, the battle is real. The Western World talks a lot about the power of God, but too often there is a lack of a visible demonstration of that power. The miracles which tend to Wow us are often common place in other parts of the world. Spiritual battles are not won with human effort. I am not calling for smoke and mirrors but I am asking us to stay in the secret place until the power of God falls on our lives until we are no longer satisfied with the status quo until people know that God is among us."

The Planter: There can be no great movement of God in the western church without Prayer and the Power of the Holy Spirit's empowerment/baptism/overflowing on every Christ follower. We need transformation not reformation. This is what is missing in the church ie power. This is even missing in Missional movements in America. While trying to reinvent the church often the Holy Spirit's role is neglected. When this happens we just have the same thing that looks different.

If we are to redeem the Church (God's people to begin personal disciple making) then we must start with prayer and wait on our knees for the Holy Spirit to come upon us in such power that we will never settle ever again for what we already have -the lifeless church. No real transformation! No driving passion to redeem lost people for Jesus.

Dr. Hossler hit a home run on this one.

What are your thoughts. The disciple making exponential movements of God begin with the Holy Spirit's power who always take us back to the redemption of the lost through the person and work of Jesus. We are so afraid of the Holy Spirit. Really, you will never fully understand the depth of the redemptive work of Christ without the empowerment of the Holy Spirit in fullness of Holy Spirit baptism. It is the Holy Spirit who takes us back to Jesus, our first love. Many so called missional movements start at the wrong place and never reach the right place - The Holy Spirit.

Now what have you to say!

9 Comments:

At June 28, 2007 12:21 PM, Blogger Kirk Kimble said...

Dr; Hossler is right, Bob. God has led the leaders of our fellowship into both of these areas in the last couple of years through a string of events, messages, and revelations. It seems that HE knows what we really need, and if we are hungry for Kingdom ministry HE will lead us there. The question is, are we listening expectantly to the Spirit, so He can lead us?

 
At June 28, 2007 11:58 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

the Holy Spirit? i've herd of Him a few times. i went to a Baptist church for about 6 years, and every sunday durring the "praise and worship"part of the service, the pastors wife (who lead "worship") would always say she knows Hes workin and can feel Him and tell Him to come... thats about te extent of it.....

 
At September 04, 2008 11:03 AM, Blogger Unknown said...

Bob, you wrote, "Really, you will never fully understand the depth of the redemptive work of Christ without the empowerment of the Holy Spirit in fullness of Holy Spirit baptism."

Must you also speak in tongues to have the fullness of Christ or just this second work of grace?

 
At September 04, 2008 12:20 PM, Blogger Bob Carder said...

I have never spoken in tongues. God never gave me this manifestation gift. But yes it was a second work experience and I was baptized in the Spirit and this timid boy became empowered. People knew I was dramatically different. It was the Holy Spirit.

 
At September 04, 2008 12:32 PM, Blogger Unknown said...

And without this second experience a person cannot have full awareness of Jesus and be a full disciple. right?

Oh yeah, I am aware of this tradition which began in 1901 and spawned one of the greatest movements of denominationalism that the world has ever seen.

 
At September 04, 2008 12:43 PM, Blogger Bob Carder said...

J.R. I'm not for using the phrase "second work" I am using baptism of the Holy Spirit because it is Scriptural. You are being bad to put me in the 1901 camp. You can be a disciple without the Holy Spirit's baptism. You cannot be an effective reproducing disciple without Him.

Leave me out of the denom camp of 1901. You have me all wrong. I am just teaching new Christ followers to experience all the Holy Spirit has to offer.

All who seek the baptism of the Holy Spirit either:
Receive Him or have something in their lives hindering His full baptism in their life. Once the stuff is dealt with, the stuff that hinders His baptism, the Holy Spirit comes with fullness and all know it when He shows up.

Have you been baptized with the Holy Spirit? You know it when it happens? Right?

 
At September 04, 2008 12:51 PM, Blogger Unknown said...

Fair enough, there are a lot of different traditions that use the terminology of BHS and mean very different things.

Maybe you fall into one of different traditions.

Yes, I have been BHS, ti happened when I was saved... matter of fact it happens when all Christians come to faith in Jesus Christ. Eph. 4 is fairly clear "for by one Spirit we were all Baptized into one Body"

 
At September 04, 2008 12:55 PM, Blogger Bob Carder said...

We receive the Spirit with conversion, we do not receive His baptism. Look up baptism of the Spirit in the word. It is different than conversion.

Anyway, the people who seek the Baptism of the Holy Spirit receive Him and are notably transformed and different. There is evidence to prove the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I cannot argue with the evidence I have experienced and or witnessed in others.

 
At September 04, 2008 1:15 PM, Blogger Unknown said...

I have done more than look up the word, I have actually studied the Scripture and that is why I know your theology is in error. Fortunately though we are saved by Grace and not perfect theology.

I am curious Bob, you post frequently about all the people that are in error and who reject your movement. I cannot recall a single post talking about someone outside of your group that you support or agree with. Can you name one other organization, outside of your own, that is doing it right? Has the right theology of the Spirit and has the right theology of disciple-making?

You may not associate yourself with the Pentecostalism of the early 1900's, but all of the historical movements connected with BHS as a second work of grace believed they had "the evidence" of personal experience that proved they were right and all other Christians were missing the true work of the Spirit. Even the Mormons in the early 1800's taught this same theology and that they had the evidence of BHS.

I invite you to take the time to read my blog to which I linked, but barring that there is probably not a lot we can discuss here in short comments.

 

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