Isn't it time.....?
Isn't it time that we address the effectiveness of our strategies and efforts in the church of America?
Can we ever hope to fulfill the Great Commission by planting enough institutional American churches?
In my last church we did a building expansion to the tune of $3.3 million dollars. They just paid off the debt after only five years. I used to view this as success, but it wasn't success. I now believe it to be a catastrophic failure when you think of dollars versus disciples. As soon as we got the building finished I struggled to keep the congregation from hunkering down. Yes, they became satisfied and comfortable. The focus of ministry went from outward to inward. They forgot why we did the expansion. I grieve over this. I was just doing what I thought was right which is now what I consider to be a grave error. I'm embarrassed to have been a huge part of this. People need the Lord! Now, the church is comfortable and oh how they look so good. BUT, people are dying without Jesus. People around the world are hungry and thirsty for clean drinking water. There are orphans and widows not being cared for. I'm saddened! There are hundreds of cars who pass by the new church campus with the steeple who need the Lord. They are not attracted to buildings. They hunger for something but don't realize that they hunger for Jesus. It's true there was a better way to invest $3.3 million dollars to reach lost people.
Isn't it time that we look at what we are doing and look with an open mind as to whether or not what we are doing is truly making authentic sold out disciples of Christ.
While we may look good to the professional world, we may not look good to God. What looks like success may really be failure. How did we ever get to this point?
Can we accomplish the huge task of reaching a possible 70 million unreached people in in America while planting institutional programmed churches? Isn't it time to reevaluate our present strategies etc.?
Just answer this one for me - How many pastors, staff, volunteers, programs, millions of dollars, buildings, signs, plots, planning, pews/chairs, video projectors, sermon outlines, keyboards, praise bands, special programs to draw, guitars, worship leaders, flamboyant leaders, high quality sound systems and special lighting - will it take to win the remaining 5 million people (and growing daily) into institutional, program based churches?
Let's be brutally honest...
posted by Bob Carder @ 9:24 PM
17 comments
17 Comments:
It is way past time!!! I am reminded of Nehemiah when he inquired about how things were going in Jerusalem. The response was that things were not going well! No doubt the same can be said about the effectiveness of our strategies and efforts in the church of America today. May God “put” in the hearts of His leaders the same passions as he did for Nehemiah - he mourned, fasted, prayed, planned and surveyed the work to be completed. It is not how many, but how committed to true discipleship… I read a quote from Howard Snyder that I believe speaks directly to this point. “The fundamental crisis of the church today is a crisis of the Word of God. The church must recover the full dynamic of the Word, not just as Scripture, but as God-in-communication, especially through the written Word of Scripture and supremely through the Incarnate Word, Jesus Christ. This is another way of saying the church must recover a consciousness of who God is.” What does this look like in the paradigm we have to operate with? Bottom line is that God does love His Church...and He is in the "putting" business. Are we ready for this robust Gospel?
What to do with the comfortable congregation?
Why not get an atheist in to preach a mocking sermon? Choose carefully - you obviously want to keep things civil.
As you know, some atheists have a detailed knowledge of the Bible and the original languages. I'd choose one that has done a PhD dissertation on a Biblical topic. The right person could make your congregation acutely aware of their shortcomings, reduce them to shrinking hypocrits within the hour.
Bob, I have few questions of you. One, would you take a pastors job of one of these churches, if you thought the leadership was teachable? Two, is the group/movement/church you are now with an exclusive group? Do you allow others to be part of this group or is it just a selective few? Do you allow others a chance to serve and disciple others?
Anon, if you are talking about a traditional established church the answer is no I would not. Teachable is one thing but accepting this New Testament way isn't likely.It is an arduous and sometimes impossible task to get a church and church leaders to get rid of everything that does not make disciples who make disciples. I find allot of people who look teachable but when the rubber meets the road they cannot accept such a radical and simple concept. The traditional church will reach lost people and they do so by addition. I am involved in a process of making disciples through multiplication. How many people were led to Jesus and discipled to make disciples in your church this year? Why would I want to go back to spending all my time keeping the present church machine oiled and running. Why would I want to focus on buildings, budgets, more butts in pews and better programs to attract more people. Now, I get to invest personally in the lives of lost people. I do not have to spend my time birping the babies. I have never been more free to do Great Commission Jesus mandated ministry. By the way, we have no whiners in our new movement. The reason, we are focussed on one thing, "Making disciples who make disciples." We do that by living out the spiritual disciplines, being held accountable,living authentic Holy Spirit led lives with transparency in the world and by listening to the promptings of the Spirit and trusting those promptings.
Question number 2 & 3: No, we are not exclusive. We are just laying the foundation for an out of control movement of God. We are trying to work with other leaders and pastors in our area and most are unwilling to even consider this. We can't even get them to meet for prayer. Bring on those who are interested in this movement and we will train, empower and release them into the harvest.If they want to serve in another denomination, who cares. We are about making disciples who make disciples. The issue is, do you or others really want to make disciples like the early church without all the baggage of the church and are you or they willing to BE THE CHURCH instead of just attending church?
Question #4, We insist that all Christ followers serve in their area of giftedness and passion in the world. We insist that all share their faith, lead people to Jesus and disciple every new believer themselves. It's not my job to disciple your new convert, it is your responsibility. By the way, why would you not want to disciple the person you just led to Jesus?
I'll see if my pastor -Pastor Terry responds to the questions above. If he does you will see that I'm not blowing smoke here.
Byron, God does love the Church (His Body, He may not like the church -the place we go to and how we act while there and in the world. Going to church is not the fulfillment of the Great Commission, being the Church in the world, sharing your faith, leading people to Jesus and you personally discipling them is. Then after you have discipled your one, he/she is released to do the same over and over again.
The traditional church would laugh me under the carpet if I told them they had to do this to be obedient to the Great Commission. And then what would happen on Sunday when we went down the rows to see who is doing this. Steam would roll and smoke would fill the room
If I tried to do what I am doing in the traditional church they would kill/fire me or I would, well you know! They wouldn't want me to be their pastor. I don't fit anymore!
Note emphasis of capital C and small C on Church or church it s intended! Church is the bride of Christ. church is the place we attend that is referred to as church. Little church is not a Biblical concept.
Dissenter, sounds good to me. Let me know when and where and I'll try to be present or get a CD.
The response would be like a squirrel crawling up grandma's dress. I wouldn't want to miss this for the world.
Then the church would beat up the pastor for inviting such a person. Poor pastor, I feel so sorry for Him as he tries to find another church to pastor.
Bob, I do not feel you are blow smoke, I know you better than that. My point is that, it seems good to remind people that if they do it, the Church is doing it because they are the Church. Things can and should be done outside the church. You don't need the seal of approval from the church to be the Church. I hope you know what I am saying. Sometime we confuse the two as you pointed out with little "c", big "C". I guess what I am saying is that little "c" can equal big "C".
I think you raise some good points. This issue of church and money is a challenging one. I don't know if there's a better way to invest the $3.3 mil--it's not for me to judge. One thing that I wonder about, though, is whether or not we sometimes have too big of a view of money and too small of a view of God. If you take the view that the $3.3 mil spent on a church building is going to send God to the poorhouse (because he has limited resources?), then I don't know where else you end up other than to feel guilty about every dollar you spend that isn't for the poor and those with inadequate water. Forget about the institutional church. Forget about the missional church. If it's all about money, then how are you and I personally spending it? How much do I spend on food in a week and shouldn't I just eat beans and rice and give the savings away? I tend to have a lower view of money and a higher view of God than that. He's not poor. He's not lacking in resources. Yes, He uses us. Yes, he uses the resources we give, of course. Ironically, he even uses people in institutional churches to give of THEIR money to YOUR specific movement and work (what percentage of your financial supporters come from the very churches you are so critical of?).
ps. I'd be interested in a blog sometime on the "failures" or shortcomings of the church you're a part of. Or are there none? I find it much easier to point to the mistakes of others (especially others who are "out there" somewhere), than to acknowledge my own. Just some thoughts.
Annon - you make it sound like we cannot make judgments against excesses unless we live in poverty. Yes - God has unlimited resources but He calls us to be good stewards which requires judgments. I believe many will stand in tears before Christ for how they spent the resources He gave them.
As for your request of Bob for “a post “on the "failures" or shortcomings of the church you're a part of” I think I can best speak to that since God has made me responsible for the flock and I will some day give an account for how I have led them. I would really prefer to have those outside our church critique us because I think it gives us perspectives we cannot give ourselves. Since you are not offering any criticism to us I will volunteer.
Our biggest shortcoming is the sin in our lives. We all struggle with something. I have a tendency to run over people when I am excited or under pressure. This mostly plays out with my family but occasionally a friend is the victim. Some of us have faith issues. We can believe God for others but not for ourselves. Some of us are trapped by our past failures or families. We have not yet gotten free from that baggage. We have new Christians in our church that still have a lot of visible sin in their lives. We have non-Christians in our church that hold to false religions and mysticism. We have long time Christians who are still trying to overcome not so visible sin in their lives. We struggle to let go of the way we have always done church without letting go of valuable traditions. We wear our passions and our pain on our sleeves for everyone to see and sometimes this makes people uncomfortable.
So as you can see we have some shortcomings. We are a fairly new work so our failures are fewer and harder to isolate and describe. If you asked each member they could give you a personal account of a way in which they have failed. We are trying many new things so failure will be present.
I am not sure why our failures interest you or why you do not sign your comments. I am not even sure how you connect this to this post.
I am the annon who wrote the first two comments (questions and little "c", big "c"). I ask the question I did, to learn different viewpoints and different perspectives. I do this because I respect Bob as my former pastor. If he is involved in a new "work" then want to pick his brain about it. I might agree or disagree with him, but I would NOT use the tone of the third annon comments. I think Bob knows that. As far as shortcomings, we all have enough to go around. That is way I am sure glad my/our LORD and SAVIOR came and died for ALL OUR SIN!!John
I love you John. I think I know where you are coming from as an elder in an established Church! Don't lose hope but don't be disillusioned either. It is tough to turn a big ship. It's just that for us we just go and let God steer the ship we are a part of. Turning the established believer to this new way of thinking is harder than you can ever dream. I know! Terry knows! We can only do it by changing one life at a time and see them change lives and on and on we go. When this happens then what happens on Sunday isn't much to brag about. If the real measure is making disciples then that is what we celebrate. And by the way, the pastors sermon isn't what we celebrate, the music isn't what we celebrate. We celebrate transformed lives who transform lives.
Are you with me?
I guess our situation is a little different. The"work/church/Church" we are in now is so much different than the one that you and I were part of it is unbelieveable. As I said we are looking for a lead pastor right now. I believe when we get the person the Lord choses for us we will be all the more, disciple makers! We are doing small groups as part of our Church structure, with service projects, study and prayer. We canceled church to pick up trash,after a major parade and hand out water to carnival workers while they are tearing down from the festival events. Yes, I guess we are an established church, but we don't argue over whether a wooden pulpit is sacared, and a plexiglass one is of the devil (remember that one). We put bathrooms in people's houses who have dirt floors. You see we (not me , the Church) is turning and will turn with Jesus help. See what went and did you got me all fired up. All we need is Ivan saying "AMMMMEEENNNN" John
Anon # 1--I mean nothing disrespectful about my tone...it was simply an honest question.
Terry--I'm actually not so interested in your personal failures as I am in any inherent failures/weaknesses in the church system you are a part of. That's why I honestly ask if Bob thinks that perhaps there are none. Granted, even calling it a 'system' might be considered offensive to you?? The reason this question is directly related to Bob's post is because it seems that Bob spends a lot of time criticizing and critiqing the general American church (this post is therefore no exception). Are there things that need to change in the American church? Absolutely. I guess my only complaint with posts like this (within the broader framework of a lot more posts just like this one) is that the focus and tone is on "everything we're not." Which, I realize, is an important part in establishing identity for new movements. In starting a new movement you are anxious to make changes from the previous movement/system. That's fine...and it's frankly an important part of reformation. But at some point you can no longer define yourself by what you aren't. And by the way, there are many of us pastors (with 'staffs and signs and high quality sound systems') who feel just as called by God to be ministering where we are as you and Bob. Who actually believe we ARE being good stewards of our resources. What then? Are we hearing wrong? Did God mistakenly get his wires crossed in calling us to be where we are? My personal belief is that we did not hear incorrectly and that God is calling us to be where we are. What do you think? From my limited knowledge/contact with Bob, I imagine he would say there is room for "both" kinds of churches. It's just that that particular notion seems to get lost in the tone and content of this post and blog in general.
Anon #1 – This is where the problem is – you want to examine my system. I have but one “system” – make disciples that make disciples. All else flows from there. When I tell you what is wrong with our church I must examine the people. Structure only exists where it flows from the disciple making process. This is a difficult thing to explain to people that have been raised in the church. There is no weakness in disciple making. There is only weakness in letting our personal issues (flesh) get in the way.
You agree there are things that must change in the American church. I wonder if you will share what you think they are? When you do I wonder if it will sound like what Bob is saying? I also want to make clear that I do not define what we are by what we are not. I can clearly articulate what we are but I chose to do that within the disciple making process so I can clear the language barriers that exist. This blog has a specific purpose and it is not to explain who or what we are.
You speak of being good stewards and feeling called to do what you are doing and I challenge you to examine where your methods and processes come from not your calling. No matter what we are convinced of in our minds we must look to Scripture for our truth. Do you do things that are modeled after the world and call it Christian? If you do then I will always point that out as error. If you do not do these things and you see transformation occurring, then God bless you.
We all can admit there are many things being done in the American church that have very little to do with God and deny His power to transform lives. If you can’t admit that then why are you coming to this blog to begin with? I think if you really understand where I am coming from then you will realize I do not think there are “both kinds” of churches.
I just think the world has crept in and is corrupting the Church.
I think many have removed disciple making from the priority of today’s Christians.
I think many are being led to a church and not to Christ.
I think as a part of the Church I have an obligation to speak out against such activity.
If you are guilty of these things then I understand how you feel attacked (maybe not the right word). If you were not guilty of these things then why would you not join me in condemning them? Do you see any reason we should not speak out against the things I just listed?
That is what I am opposed to not the “kind” of church.
anon, the church in America needs to be critiqued and confronted by all of us and if all of us can't see that there are serious problems then some of us have our heads in the sand. Do you really see the problem? I'm sure you do! The church as you know it does not engage disciple making, nor do they see that they need to nor do they want to. Now what are we to do with that? You look and take note of how many or how few people in your church intentionally make disciples and then you look at what you do and what you call church. How much of what is done in ministry is for the already reached? How much of what you do is labeled as outreach when it has nothing or very little to do with making disciples who make disciples.
How much outreach is planned ministry and how much outreach is personally owned and lived everyday because everyone knows we must all make disciples or be held responsible for souls going to hell? Actually many believers live their lives as if to say to the unreached, "Just, go to hell, I have my own life to live!"
I'd hate to see some of your (blogland) reactions if the Old Testament prophets were alive and blogging on the American church. I call what I do "nice" in comparison to what those prophets would say and do. And every one of those prophets were attacked and hated for pointing and redirecting. God used the prophets and when the people listened there were blessings and when they didn't there was judgment every time. Don't get me wrong now, I have a prophet gifting, that's all I claim to have.
This blog serves to mobilize the church to become the Church that makes disciples making disciples the main thing just like Jesus said it is.
Great post, dude. Reminds me of the $100 million building recently finished at a megachurch here in Chicagoland. The building that's now hard to fill and getting harder. Praise God He owns the earth and all that's in it. There's always plenty of moeny, even afer well-intentioned, high-price tag mis-steps. Press on brother! I'm a fan.
Bob, I've longed for an answer to my question from my Father: Is this all there is to the Christian life? You've given me encouragement. Why do we leave church every Sunday mostly unchanged? Because we haven't been taught, shown that the great Commission isn't about us and our comforts, it's about HIM!! As I reread the gospels, I see my JESUS not passive but active. He was about the FATHER'S work. Can I do anything less and be called a Christian? JESUS said HIS Disciples will do great works than
HE. Where is the power? I'm tired of complacency in my life. I want life and more abundantly.
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