Such disbelief...
I continue to be amazed at man's idea(s) for making disciples. Never do I find in Scripture that making disciples has anything to do with a classroom experience. Programmed disciple making courses do not produce reproducing disciple makers. At least it is a rarity if they do. In my circles in three different denominations I have found that the success rate is way below any acceptable level.
I see such disbelief in the American church with reference to disciple making within the context of new disciples making new disciples immediately following their conversion. Because of our disbelief in a new converts ability to lead and disciple others we would rather do one of two things. One, don't do anything but encourage church attendance. Two, Put them in a 6 or 12 week discipleship class.
Such disbelief seems at odds with the teaching and promises of Scripture. We say we believe God has the ability to transform people from darkness into light. But then we ignore God's ability through His Holy Spirit to lead a disciple to lead another disciple to lead another disciple all with the anointing of God. Whoever taught us that new disciples were not supposed to reproduce quickly upon their conversion?
Example: As I lead you to Christ, I disciple you by walking with you to lead your someone to Christ and then as I continue walking with you you walk with your disciple and your disciple does the same with his disciple. As we lead people to Jesus we walk with them as long as it takes while all the time pouring our lives and the Truth they need to become and build strong disciples themselves. It is a Holy Spirit filled and led process.
*You (the church) believe a God can transform...YES
*You (the church) do not believe God can lead new believers to lead others to Christ immediately upon their conversion...NO
*You (the church) do not believe that God's Holy Spirit can lead a disciple making process without the man made agenda (classes) for making disciples even when what we do our way isn't working. Man programmed disciple making classes do not reproduce disciples who make disciples. They instead make good church members who invite their friends to become good church members who look like and act like all the others.
If God can transform a person from darkness into light He can also lead that disciple of light to lead those in darkness back into the light. If God can win them through you, He can disciple them through you and they can reproduce quickly by doing the what they see you doing and by teaching what they hear you teaching by allowing the Holy Spirit to lead it all and all the time.
The Spiritual DEATH of a disciple making movement is found in a classroom.
BOTTOM LINE: I trust God to transform lives who can lead and disciple others to Jesus immediately upon their conversion. Jesus loves to work through me to redeem his lost children so that through me the Holy Spirit can disciple them to lead others and disciple them as others come to Christ they lead others to Christ and the others lead the others so that the others can disciple them to do the same.
Do you believe God can transform those from darkness into light?
Do you believe that God can release and empower those new disciples quickly so that they can lead and disciple others who do the same?
Or are you stuck in a classroom rut?
posted by Bob Carder @ 11:20 AM
15 comments
15 Comments:
Hey! you're back blogging! Welcome back, mi amigo.
Glad you're back and feeling well enough to write. I've been praying for you.
While I agree with you on the person to person discipleship, I have to ask: What do you do with those who have the spiritual gift of teaching? Isn't a classroom a good context to express their ministry?
Also, Acts 2:42 reads seems to be describing a home classroom setting. Your thoughts?
Mike, It's either blog and do other things or sit around like a medicated zombie, thinking about my sad condition. I choose the high road, at least for today.
I see those gifted teachers being able to disciple more gifted ones to become disciple makers. Those with the gift of teaching are teaching everyday and everywhere they go and not just on Sunday, I hope.
Jesus did lead a movement that made disciples who made disciples and He did birth house churches rapidly. The thing here is that for discipleship to be reproducible it needs to simplified in process and must be flesh on flesh, one on one in growing and deepening relationships. Accountability happens best in one on one relationships and not in the small group dynamic.
You let me ask you the hard questions in a group or in private, which works best?
Another thing is this: Even gifted teachers who are not making disciples who make disciples are missing the mark. We teach what we know. We reproduce what we are. Are those teachers with the gifts just teaching or are they reproducing what they are?
my name is Peter MacInnes, I ran across your blog doing a search on google. I too am a bible believing Christian, and I applaud you for your work. If you have time check out my blog at WWW.reformation-america.blogspot.com, it is a site to help bring the church back to its origianl purpose, that is speading the Gospel of Jesus Christ. God bless you for your efforts, and we pray for a complete recovering of your health in Jesus name. Amen
Peter
Hi Bob and welcome back! If you can let me be a bit cantakerous for a moment ...
Why do you limit God by saying that he can't work in a classroom?
Paul rented a room for ministry in Ephesus - probably not only for one on one discipleship. Jesus did much of his discipling among a small group of 12.
You say the spiritual DEATH of discplemaking is found in a classroom. This is focusing on the cosmetics of disciplemaking rather than the heart of it.
Granted, if disciple making ONLY happens in a classroom its going to multiply slowly, but discipleship happens in many ways, at many levels, and in many contexts. When we limit it to one - whether in a classroom or only one on one - we create a dysfunctional discipling process.
Discipleship happens spontaneously. It also happens strategically and with a Spirit-led plan. It happens one on one, but it also happens with small groups and even large groups. It happens when I'm able to impart truth or insight to someone. It happens when I can recommend them to someone else, to a book, to a cd, to a seminar or conference. When I recommend a book to someone, my part in their discipleship has been face to face. But the author of the book also plays a part and he, in a sense, may be part of the discipling process for millions of nameless faces.
The key, I think, is to be committed to discipleship and open to seeing it happen in many ways and places. Some discipleship is more geared towards a classroom. For example, a small piece of the discipling process for Christian medical doctors may be a seminar in medical ethics. That won't be all they need, but it may be part of it - and that may be better handled in a classroom by a mature, Christian doctor than by me.
Let's not put God in a box.
BTW, the discussion on baptism is still going on over at my blog. Feel free to weigh in any time! :-)
Great discussion here. I think that there is a place for structured (classroom) learning as well as the real life stuff. The problem is that we have become inept at the latter for sure. If I am unwilling to be open and accountable I will be a terrible discple and discipler.
Satan has successfully perpetuated the lie that my faith is a perosnal thing and it's just between God and I. We need the brotherhood/ discipler relationships. Jesus sent them out in pairs for a reason. We need to get back to these authentic relationships.
One final thought. We do not believe that young disciples can reproduce quickly because we are embarassed, convicted, ashamed, or whatever about the fact that we are not doing it ourselves. Therefore we minimize it.
God Bless and keep healing you. I have had much experince in my family with infections of various types and can associate with what you are going through.
Hey Rick, I thought we were letting God out of the box. I didn't want you to be the only cantankerous one.
You must know by now that I am referring to intentional,Holy Spirit led, spontaneous disciple-making where disciples are making disciples who are making disciples.
(Being cantankerous) I wouldn't call all the other stuff disciple-making. Perhaps it is teaching or a seminar, or whatever. But it is not in the context of what I describe here. To lump everything into the discipleship bowl let's far too many off the spiritual hook of obedience to the Great Commission.
All that we do in the name of making disciples isn't really making them. What we do in church is often labeled discipleship but isn't what it claims.
So how do you define discipleship?
and jumping off Rick's question, "Why do you get to define it?"
Yes, I know making disciples is in the GC -- we've been over that. But that is not a definition of discipleship, that is commissioning to make disciples.
Mike, I don't get to define it. Jesus already did it for us.
Go and make disciples, baptizing them and teaching them "to obey" all that I have commanded. Oh, by the way, I'll be with you while you go about it through my Holy Spirit.
We love to learn more, we hate to obey.
Jesus defined Discipleship. Making Christ followers who walk as Jesus did and continue the work Jesus began, a kingdom work of redeeming the lost.
By the way, you cannot teach obedience in the classroom. In the classroom you fill heads with knowledge. That is the Greek method of learning. It's kind of like learning to know, not learning to go.
The Hebrew method of learning is evidenced in the life of Jesus. He taught as he went while showing and living it before the world. There are always going to be teachable moments and Jesus seized those opportunities. But Jesus didn't just teach to fill heads with knowledge. He showed us the way to obedient living.
It's really not making disciples that we argue over -we believe we should do it, we just never get around to the obedience part of this command. "Go" means go.
Terry Goodwin puts it this way,
Here are the four marks of a disciple as I teach them.
A Disciple is Obedient (Hebrews 5:8).
A Disciple is Faithful (Hebrews 3:1-2).
A Disciple is Loving (John 13:34-35).
A Disciple is Reproducing (John 12:24,32).
The Planter: Are you a disciple?
I like Terry's definition. I have no problem with going. So we're all one big happy family now, right?
Hey, Bob. I can't keep up with you! Especially since the discussion on baptism is up to 37 comments - a record for my blog, I think. I'm determined not to let this turn into a full time job. ;-)
Here's a comment off the top of my head that may be misunderstood. Let's see.
One thing that is lacking in this definition of a disciple is faith. 'Without faith it is impossible to please God.' This was how Jesus' discipleship differed even from the other Jewish rabbis. He wasn't just teaching a moral code, a way of living or particular way of interpreting the scriptures. He was teaching them to abandon everything that they trusted would give them security - money, national identity, power, religion, good works, and (dare I say it) obedience to the Great Commission.
Of course, this can't be done in a classroom, which is why Jesus led the disciples into storms (Mark 4), into Gentile territory full of demons (Mark 5), and into the homes of tax collectors and sinners (Mark 2). It's why he sent them out 2 by 2 with no money, extra clothes, or food (Luke 12). But the goal wasn't to teach them a new, different kind of behavior. That's just trading one legalism for another. He was teaching them to trust Him.
A disciple is one who is learning to live by faith/trust in Christ for eternity and for today.
My attempts to be a disciple through obedience failed. Obedience, faithfulness, love, and multiplication all remain captives to my conception of these things unless I give up and let Christ take over. But once I gave up and trusted Christ, then the other things started to happen. I still disobey, I still am unfaithful and untrustworthy, I still act unloving, and not nearly enough multiplication takes place through me, but I'm trying to give God the space to work in me, and I'm trying to calm down enough to see what He's doing around me.
That's why baptism to me isn't primarily an act of obedience. It's an act of faith and desperation. It's an admission that I give up and turn it all over to Christ. It's death.
Rick, I like your thoughts on the faith deal.
We teach that baptism is the first act of obedience. I guess I'll go back to your sight and read those pithy comments.
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