It's Moving Forward
Todd and Yolanda Bush and their three boys are moving by faith to Kansas City on August 1st. They have an apartment near Kearney, Mo in the metro region of Kansas City. We are excited and they are excited to begin reaching people for Christ by making disciples who make disciples.
We are not sure what the church will look like but we are sure it is not our job to plant churches. We pray for a disciple multiplication movement, as souls are saved they will be taught that they must reach others and before long we have new disicples making other disciples who make other disciples. We expect new converts to lead others to Christ within the first three monthes -the sooner the better.
What's exciting to me is we have a couple who are determined not to be satisfied with pew sitters on Sunday. They will lead by example and they will teach believers about the Supremacy of the Great Commission. They will develop disicples who are different than many other professing disciples. The disciples they make for Christ will understand that disciples of Christ are commanded to make disciples.
I cannot wait to see what God does through this family. Please join with me in praying for them. Please pray for Pastor Todd as he seeks employment. As God leads, you may even want to help them financially on a monthly basis. If you will commit to praying and or giving to their ministry please email me: bcarder@centurytel.net and I will help you accomplish that task.
Blessings to all who pray and follow the mandate of the Great Commission.
posted by Bob Carder @ 5:09 PM
7 comments
7 Comments:
Bob:
They will lead by example and they will teach believers about the Supremacy of the Great Commission. They will develop disicples who are different than many other professing disciples. The disciples they make for Christ will understand that disciples of Christ are commanded to make disciples.
Bob, first let me say that I have no doubt that your heart is to reach the lost in the metro Kansas City area. I can read your passion through your posts and I do wish you well in your endeavor.
However, I would like to temper your remarks concerning "making disciples" as being a requirement or "commission" for all believers.
What I have been kicking around in my head and heart lately is the fact that in both Matthew and Mark where the so-called "Great Commission" is found, Jesus only speaks this command to the apostles (i.e., eleven disciples). No where in the NT do we see Jesus commanding others to "go and make disciples." In fact, no where in the Book of Acts do we see believers being commanded to "make disciples."
In contrast, we see in Acts Jesus telling the disciples to stay in Jerusalem for the purpose of receiving the Spirit of God, the result of which being that the believers were to become witnesses throughout the world.
I believe that there is a real distinction here.
What I'm formulating in my mind is that the "going" is for certain, gifted individuals (i.e., apostles) to go into areas where the gospel is not known and to preach and teach, making converts into disciples. Then, as Paul did, leave that group behind where the disciples are to interact with other believers.
This is the "witnessing" that I believe Jesus spoke about in Acts 1 and what the Early Church did quite well...to the point where thousands were added to the Kingdom as the surrounding community witnessed believers ministering to itself in ways that we've sadly long forgotten.
Then as that community grows, the Spirit directs other certain, gifted individuals to go out and create these communities of faith (i.e., churches) to be witnesses, in essence repeating the work of the Early Church as seen in Acts.
Now I know that many will think that I'm splitting hairs distinguishing between who "makes disciples," but I'm becoming more convinced that the teaching that we are all called to follow the "Great Commission" was/is wrong and has thus placed too much pressure to "make disciples" instead of being witnesses as a (sub)community of believers living and fleshing out the gospel before a dying society.
Hence, Bob, your remarks above about having requirements for converts to "make disciples" within a certain time period.
First, by setting that requirement in concrete you're basically (and wrongly) establishing a belief that disciples can "be made" within 3 months, which is another problem that has faced the Church for generations...that of believing that we can create "disciple mills" where people can be made into disciples of Christ after a round of classes.
The sobering fact that I believe that we have forgotten is that biblical discipleship takes a lifetime and never ends until we close our eyes for the final time on this earth. The belief that we can "train disciples" is grossly inaccurate and has led to people who look more like the pastor of an organization (through classes) than actual disciples of Christ.
I think what we should consider is that what you call the "Supremacy of the Great Commission," while well-intentioned, is unworkable because the Church is not called to make disciples but to be witnesses, which requires that believers learn what it means to be the Church by living with other believers as I have described above. In other words, the natural byproduct of believers fleshing out the gospel together is fulfilling the greatest commandment of all, which supercedes the so-called "Great Commission," although the latter has been given greater importance by man who end up "programming" it into something that it was not intended to be.
It is while the Church learns what it means to take care of its own that believers will "naturally" reach out to others in their neighborhoods, workplaces, etc., to tell them about Jesus.
I'm convinced that one way to kill evangelism is to mandate it, because it no longer is a result of the heart but of the mind and thus is unfruitful.
My encouragement to you and to others who long to see people brought to Christ, as I do, is to remember that the moment we begin establishing requirements we cease being led by the Spirit.
And that, my friend, is non-negotiable.
Tell those who wish to work with you in reaching your city to focus on creating a community of believers who are intent on learning what it means to BE the Church (i.e., witnesses).
In doing that, you'll guarantee the addition of new believers into the Kingdom because they will have seen that the gospel is real and worth dying for.
I think I need a little help in understanding this correctly. Here is the passage known as the Great Commission.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.
In it, the Disciples are commanded to teach others to observe all things that they were taught. One of these things is to teach others, it is found right here in this passage. Another comes from this passage. Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the Gospel to every creature.
Isn’t teaching others all things that Christ taught His disciples the “Disciple” making in question. It clearly includes preaching the Gospel, Teaching and Baptizing.
In the Book of Acts this is clearly the pattern of the early church. In Acts 5:42 it says: And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ. In Acts 6:1 it says: And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied.
So Luke here recognizes the addition of disciples to the church. While that could be the work of the Apostles only, it is clear that they were to teach these disciples to do what they were taught to do. When the church is scattered in Acts 11 we see all the scattered taking the Gospel to people. Throughout Paul’s writings many others are encouraged to teach. Women, Men, Young, Old, it is a primary theme of many passages.
If I instruct all of the Disciples of Christ that I make to teach others all that I taught them I would not likely instruct their disciples directly. I think this is why you do not see Jesus instructing others to do these things. He has instructed His hand chosen twelve (I include Paul) and they are instructing the others as part of the disciple making process. I think Scripture is clear that we are all to make disciples and the Great commission applies to all believers. Help me out if I am wrong here.
Also, on the three month program. I have only met with Bob once but I think I understand what he means here. In three months we should be able to take a new convert and equip them to share the Gospel, seek the Lost, Baptize the converted, and begin training the new convert to do what they have learned. I don’t think he believes you can finish discipling someone in three months. Do I understand you correctly on this Bob.
Bob - on a couple of side notes. I felt a little convicted after our meeting because I was not seeking the lost as I should. When I looked at my prayer list I admit that the lost were pushed off the list due to my other concerns for the Christians in my care. Friday morning I prayed that God would bring me a seeker that I could share the Gospel with. Later that morning a co-worker approaches me and hands me a CBMC Ministry flyer and asks me what I think. I asked him what he was looking for and he said he felt something was missing in his life and he wanted to learn more about spiritual things because for some reason he thought that might be it. We start meeting Wednesday. Pray for His salvation.
Also I have decided to take the next step with you. We will finish the paperwork and get with you soon.
Thank you Terry for your words of encouragement regarding my post.
Again, I want to say that I have no problem with Bob's intention and post, with the exception that the "Great Commission" is "supreme" over all else as regards to the Church. I find no fault with his heart (nor yours) but I'm questioning the methodology that has been passed down to us, which I believe places a perverted emphasis on evangelism and basically ignores the purpose for the Church, which is clearly to be witnesses.
Regarding your view of Jesus' commands to His disciples and whether the so-called "Great Commission" is included in the commandments that were to be taught to new converts, I disagree because no where do we see Jesus giving any other commandment to His disciples other than to love one another. I believe that this simple commandment, which is till extant to the Church today is what makes us true witnesses of Christ...or should make us true witnesses. Jesus also referred to several commandments in Matthew 5, primarily referring to how the light of our lives should be a shining example of His work in our lives.
Unfortunately, we've missed the proverbial boat on the simple commandment to love one another to the point that the Church in America has been basically marginalized.
My view of the phrase, "teaching them to observe all that I commanded you;" (Matthew 28:20) is an affirmation of the authority that was given Him from the Father and does not necessarily include the commission that He gave only to the apostles. Jesus, I believe, was referring to the commandments that He gave to them, which was to love one another.
If your view is correct, then the apostles failed in issuing the same "commandment" to the Christians in Antioch when they wrote:
For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials:
...that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well... (Acts 15:28-29)
Had the commandment to "make disciples" been so important then they would have commanded the Antioch Christians to do so. Instead, they wrote them to encourage them as to how to live their lives...as new believers...that would attract people, not compel them.
Additionally, Paul (nor any of the other apostles [i.e., Peter, John, etc.]) never commands Timothy, Titus or any of his contemporaries to "make disciples," but he spills much ink in instructing them on how to teach people how to live as well as how the church gathering is to function, all of which has to do with being a witness to their communities.
Why is that if, in your view, the "Great Commission" is/was of such extreme importance?
The addition of new believers in the Early Church was NOT the work of the apostles but rather of the Church as they moved from house to house, broke bread together, and took care of each others' needs. This lifestyle so impressed the surrounding community that it drew them to Christ. The teaching of the apostles' was meant to share with believers the teachings of Jesus which, in turn, made those who embraced the teachings of Christ HIS disciples.
Regarding your defense of Bob's "3 month program," in which you say:
In three months we should be able to take a new convert and equip them to share the Gospel, seek the Lost, Baptize the converted, and begin training the new convert to do what they have learned. I don’t think he believes you can finish discipling someone in three months.
Again, this sounds so "churchy" it's not even funny. This is more of the perverted "leadership" mentality that we've had in the American church for far too long, which has caused immeasurable damage to the witness of Christ.
I believe that such an emphasis also flies into the face of Paul's admonition to Timothy (I Timothy 3:6) to avoid utilizing new converts. This is tantamount to commissioning a toddler with the responsibility to feed, bathe, protect and care for other toddlers, although they can't even take care of themselves. I'm convinced that this emphasis has also led to such an anemic witness.
My encouragement to all of us as the Church is that we must first understand who we are as the Church...to reclaim the purpose, principles and practices of the New Testament Church...before we start another well-intentioned but doomed program in the name of "making disciples." Until we truly know who we are, we can never really tell others the great value of being a part of the Body of Christ.
I think the devil is in the semantics here. According to Strong’s Greek Dictionary the word disciple means - A "disciple" was not only a pupil, but an adherent; hence they are spoken of as imitators of their teacher. Love for God and Love for others would flow from a discipled teacher teacher to a disciple.
What would happen in America if what I am proposing actually bore fruit? Many hundreds and thousands and millions of lives would be transformed.
I know discipleship is a process and I am not fully discipled while on this earth. So....?
But think of it, if everyone valued the command in Matthew 28 and the supremacy of the Great Commission we would not be sitting in a pew on Sunday morning being fed and taught.
When will we use what we have been taught for years? Everyone can share Jesus and the message of redemption. When did we ever think that only a chosen few can lead people to Jesus? The very fact that we are witnesses implies the truth of what I am suggesting here.
When the Church doesn't disciple one on one the Church fails to hear the words of Jesus in Matthew 28.
Tell me about your recent disciple? Or tell me about a recent prayer for God to lead someone to you?
Thanks Tim for hearing God's voice and leading as He leads.
As for me, I am praying for God to send someone my way so I can share Jesus and lead them and disciple them and allow them the challege and privilege of leading someone else.
Within three monthes: In the New Testament Church was more like days. Only in America do we take years to train people to share Jesus which very few share after being trained to do so....
Does anyone really think that the apostles were the only ones to lead people to Jesus? Why leave the rest of us out of this great joy? Why do we never get to share the joy of our salvation and pull in the net of leading others to Christ?
In the 1950's and before only the seminary trained could share the Word of God accurately. Today, after many failures of the trained clergy we are finally getting to the New Testament standard. That standard is -we who have been changed should be intruments in changing others with help of God and His Holy Spirit.
I respectfully offer these thoughts...The Great Commission is for all and all for the Great Commission.
Why not ask everyone to lead everyone to Jesus...?
Here's my final thot. If every beleiver led someone to Jesus this year...America would be changed and would not be a pagan nation but Christian in thought, heart, lifestyle and idenity.
Any arguments now?
We have been given two rules to follow as disciples: Love God with all of your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. We are to be people of love; loving God with everything in us and loving the people around us.
When we give ourselves to being people of this bi-directional love we then become part of something; a temple constructed of living stones. Every one of us has a size, shape, and spot to fill in the "building." Another metaphor is that we become part of a body and each of us has a particular bodily function (I often feel like the colon).
Whether we use the analogy of the "building" or the "body" the following is true: Some of us will be gifted to function as apostles, some of us will be gifted to function as evangelists, some of us will be gifted to function as givers, some will be gifted to function as showers of hospitality, some will be be gifted to function as showers of mercy, etc. etc. etc.
We're not all going to plant churches, or lead groups, or be street evangelists.
Not all of us are going to "do" the same things. We need to encourage one another to embrace the unique giftings and callings that God has given us. We need to encourage one another to be faithful in fitting into the one particular part of the building or functioning as the one particular part of the body that God has gifted us to fit or function.
When we all become obsessed with love and when we all discover this about ourselves and about one another, then guess what...disciples are made. The "temple" and the "body" exist for one purpose: That God will be worshipped and glorified AND that the Kingdom of God may fill the earth because God is not willing that any would perish but that all would come to repentance.
I also believe that being a disciple demands that we make other disciples. I do not believe that making this demand in any way hinders the Holy Spirit. Why? God gave us this command and mandate or requirement in the first place. Not doing what God commands will be what hinders the Holy Spirit.
Chew on that one for a while.
Post a Comment
<< Home