Christendom -mode Church is flawed!
Hirsh andFrost in "The Shaping of Things to Come" continue...
"The Christendom-mode church has three flaws in the DNA - the three are; attractional, dualistic, and hierarchical.
First by attractional, we mean that the traditional church plants itself in a particular community...and expects that people will come to meet God and find fellowship with others. There is nothing unbiblical about being attractive to unbelievers. How much of the traditional church's energy goes into adjusting their programs and their public meetings to cater to the unseen constituency?
Second, the Christendom-mode church is dualistic. It separates the sacred from the profane, the holy from the unholy, the in and the out. What we have said so far about the sickness of attractionalism finds its roots in the church's dualistic spirituality.
Third, the traditional church (Christendom) is hiearchical, deeply indebted to what we see as an overly religious, bureaucratic, top-down model of leadership, as opposed to one that is more structured around grassroots agendas.
The Planter says: Perhaps now that we have messed up things and our reputation as a church is severely damaged -maybe it is time for us to take the hand off the plow and let the Holy Spirit take the plow so He will be able to turn over the old dry top soil and plow it under so the fresh soil can emerge in a new movement birthed through us.
Why do we want something that is not working? Why can't we see what God is trying to do around the world?
posted by Bob Carder @ 11:38 AM
32 comments
32 Comments:
I wonder what drew the planter into a relationship with our omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient creator?
Beau - The most wonderful ministry of the Holy Spirit who never gave up on me until one night I knelt by my bedside with conviction and longing desire and in our home He led me into a forgiving relationship with Jesus. At that moment I met the all powerful, always present and all knowing God of this universe.
Why might you be asking?
The 2nd one is most frustrating to me. When will we truly understand that "Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty. The whole earth is filled with His *glory!" *Hebrew word...kavod...meaning weight, significance. The fingerprints of God are everywhere...and we should be pointing them out even in the midst of the profane. There are no God-forsaken places...only church-forsaken places!
And, Bob, praise God that the Holy Spirit has cut you to the heart and has marked you as His own!
Bob,
I'm just wondering, but I must ask.
Who did God use to reveal the Gospel of our Savior to you?
A little devil's advocate here...but Beau has a valid question here. Let's make sure that we don't throw out the baby with the bathwater (i.e. apply our generalities of the church's faults to every personal situation). We wouldn't want others to do that about our ministry.
I personally have no desire to be a part of the institutional church right now, but I must give credit where credit is due. There are individuals within the church structure that were instrumental to my spiritual growth and general awareness of who He is. God used the workers that were at His disposal to draw me to Him.
If there is one giant flaw, it is that we are not focused enough on reproducing these kind of active harvesters because our time and energy is spread so thin in the church. For each one of us that have answered the call of the Great Commission there are nine others that will not. It's much easier to just put someone on the payroll and call it done. But then, you already knew that.
Amen, AWM.
I do maintain and believe that all is not bad with the church as it is.
And I think Bob would agree.
I also agree with you that the problem, largely, is that we in the institutional church who are concerned about direction are not focused enough on reproducing active harvesters, as you so colorfully put it.
(Mental image from The Matrix inserted here.)
If I understand Bobert right, he doesn't believe "his" way is the only way, but he does believe his way is the only way.
In other words, and I hate to make Bob's arguments for him, but ... if the institutional church (and each believer within it) would take the Great Commission as its (their) primary mandate, it wouldn't matter if they met in large mega churches or local parks.
But I do appreciate your caution as sometimes I feel I'm the only one here who is happy with the church as it is even while being interested in improving it.
I think I'm a competent writer and editor now, but that doesn't mean I'm not trying to get better...to learn new skills and hone the ones I have. Right?
I was saved in an traditional church setting and the men who had the greatest impact on discipling me through the years have all been men in traditional/contemporary church settings.
No problem with where the church has been over the years with impact on my life and the lives of others. People ar ein the kingdom and will continue to be reached so I admit, I agree with Beau and Curt and AWM and Bill.
But I do have a serious concern with the direction she is moving. That's why I posted this article. God is giving America a wake up call.
If we don't see this (Of course I think I am right-I always think I am right and I have proven to not always be right) we are heading on a colision course very much like what Europe in experiencing.
What really brought me to Jesus was the influence of my Aunt Muncie and the fact that I saw "A Thief in the Night" three times (in church) and it scared the devil out of me. Our family left the Catholic Church when I was in the second grade. I gave my life to Jesus when I was 16 after leaving the church (for a period over pain I had received by those in my church) but after receiving Jesus I went back and continue to minister in and outside as I became a bus captain and spent every Saturday knocking on doors and inviting children to Sunday School
I would never want to be seen as BASHING all the good in the Body of Christ. I do agree with the article and the main point of the author in that the Christendom -Mode is seriously flawed.
I keep proclaiming that message even if I end up being a lone voice in the wilderness - which by the way, is not the case as leaders across America and around the world are joining God is a new movement and the fresh wind of God's Spirit to back up, reflect, see who we are, where we are heading,and let God lead us in His direction and on His message with full engagement.
I agree with you Bob. God will use whatever means necessary to reach us, even if it is a weak and flawed institution.
I'm with you though...that what was cannot continue to be what is because if what is continues to be what has always been then then......oh never mind. Confused myself.
What Bob said.
Just to rebut my own post.
It doesn't really matter if I'm happy with the church as it is, or if I'm not. I meant to add that in the original post, but neglected to do so.
What matters, of course, is whether God is happy with the church as it is.
I have no answer for that. I have my suspicions, but no answers.
Thanks Bill!
Mike - what are your suspicions? Come on jump out of the boat and tell us...
I hate secrets! It's like I have something for you but I can never tell you what it is - you must guess!
Thanks Bill!
Mike - what are your suspicions? Come on jump out of the boat and tell us...
I hate secrets! It's like I have something for you but I can never tell you what it is - you must guess!
Hey Beau - Do you see what you started?
Tell us more about yourself - you are still a mystery to us.
Oh Bob, here you go, digging at my comfort again.
OK, but these are not fully formed thoughts, as you will clearly see. I've only just recently been giving consideration to that question.
I "speak" with fear and trembling, as any man should who determines to speak what he believes God would say. But he loves me, so I press on.
I would say "mostly no" God is not pleased. Mostly. People like me are rife in the church. And let me just say, Bobert, I am not making specific reference to ANY one church.
But people like me are rife in the church. What do I mean? We are participating. We're singing. We're worshipping. We're teaching Sunday school. We're serving on boards. We're exploring new ways to draw people to church. We doing church, OK?
But am I making a difference? Is my life counting? Yes, I think so, in many ways. But, but...but... something is missing.
Maybe I'm just 47 and going through "manopause," but I do want something more. I'm a boomer, of course I want more. !!!
But I said "mostly no" God is not pleased, that means that, I think, that "partly yes," he is pleased.
So what is God pleased about? I think God is pleased (fear and trembling here, again) that the "God as your best buddy" mentality is being replaced by the "shock and awe" that is a holy God. My box has been too small for God for a long time. He and I have both felt uncomfortable in there.
I'm ranging far and wide in this post, but remember Curt's Tozer quote from several posts over? I don't want a God I can be friends with. I don't want a God I can understand and comprehend. I want a God I can worship and serve and fear and worship. A God who mystifies and who I only see through a dark glass. Y'know?
There's a song popular on the radio right now that claims "I am a friend of God, He calls me friend." Offhand I can only think of one time in Scripture that God called someone "friend" and that was Abraham (James 2:23).
I am not God's friend, I am his child. I am not my father's friend, I am his son. This is becoming an important distinction for me.
But I am seeing more and more of a holy reverance, a holy awe, for and of God that is encouraging to me.
I have prattled enough.
Mike said, We're exploring new ways to draw people to church. We doing church, OK?
The Planter: I cannot believe you said this! Did you really say, "We're exploring new ways to draw people to church?" You just proved one of the flaws of the Christendom-mode!
We were never commanded to draw people to church but we are commanded to "GO" and by being incarnational Christ followers in the world we can also reach her.
As we build deepening authentic relationships with the unreached they are being discipled to Jesus and when they accept Him they become Christ followers who worship and adore Him and also fellowship with other believers.
It's time to "GO" reach and not just "DRAW" and hope to reach!
I love you Mike! These discussions are flushing it out. Am I praddling?
Well, Bob, what did you expect? That I was going to lie?
Of course I said that.
The whole post was about my dissatisfaction with where the church is (not A church, please note) and whether I thought God was pleased. (Well, at least 74.3% of it was about that...)
It's not about "proving" who's right or wrong, is it? Isn't it about finding the place where we can work together, brothers and sisters in Christ, working to bring others to God?
We are such competitve people -- that's another post, though.
Now about whether you're "praddling" or not, I'm sure I don't know...I don't find that word in my handy-dandy dictionary. lol
By the way, this discussion has not changed my belief that the church CAN function in a way more pleasing to God, without dismantling the entire system.
By the way, the title of this whole blog post is flawed.
"The Christendm-mode Church is flawed!" Yeah, and in our next feature on Eye-witness News, the amazing story of the dog that bit a man!
Any system built by flawed people is going to be flawed. Any system.
Getting warm around here. Time for a group hug and rousing rendition of Russ Taff's "We Will Stand."
Sometimes it’s hard for me to understand
why we pull away from each other so easily
even though were all workin’ the same road
Yet we build dividing walls between our
brothers and ourselves, but I, I don’t care
What label you wear, but you believe in Jesus
You belong with me, In God we share
And all I care to see is that we’ll change the world forever
You will join with me, join and sing, sing...
Chorus:
You’re my brother you’re my sister
so take me by the hand
Together we will work until He comes
There’s no foe that can defeat us
We’re walkin’ side by side
As long as there is Love
We will stand
One day will come when we’ll be as one
and with a binding voice together
We will proclaim you Jesus, Jesus is King
It will echo through the earth
it will shake the nations
And the world will see
And they will see
Chorus
Take me by the hand
Join with me
Join let us sing
Chorus
Mike-
"The Christendm-mode Church is flawed!" Yeah, and in our next feature on Eye-witness News, the amazing story of the dog that bit a man!
Any system built by flawed people is going to be flawed. Any system.
The Planter: How can the way Jesus did it be flawed? We are not building a system-we are following His.
I know you Mike -you woke up a little grouchy with the rain and all. I love it when you dig a little deeper and spar with me.
Love you -
Let's not get the group hug going to quickly -God is learning (teaching) us some stuff.
(five minutes pass) Now let's have that group hug and Mike gets to lead us all in prayer while Bill sings his Russ Taff favorite and most timely song. (Since you are in the south -I would appreciate a little country flavor as well).
Now seriously -Bill you just cannot let me go too far without reeling me back in.
As the smoke clears -Mike and I are still best friends! Tomorrow there will be more smoke as we navigate through definitions and redefining.
Is this a record number of comments to a singluar post on your blog Bob?
I can't seem to get more than 2 or 3 on mine. I want so badly to be a blogmaster superhero...but alas...
Hey, while I love that Taff song (sang it myself at a previous church) I am laughing because cyber-talk is so hard to interpret.
I am not grouchy. And I am not sparring with Bobert. I do have an opinion, but that's OK.
My point about ANY man-made system being flawed is, I think, accurate. Even the disciples making disciples system you're using is "based on" what Christ did, but unless you got a BIG promotion you haven't told us about, you are not, yourself, Christ. Therefore, as perfect as I'm sure you will attempt to be, it will still be RE-created by man and therefore flawed. At least in my today-not-so-humble opinion.
And since I was asked to pray:
Father, I beg you to teach Bob that I am right...OK, wait.,..just kidding...
Now the real prayer:
Dear heavenly Father, holy, holy, holy is your name. May your kingdom come soon and may you empower us to do your will -- here and in preparation for heaven. Provide for us today, Father, all that we need -- for today. Forgive the imperfections in our lives and empower us to do the same for those around us. Set our paths so they don't cross those temptations that will make us stumble back into sin. Why? Because we are yours and we worship you. All power and glory is yours forever and ever, amen.
MIKE & Others: I'm flawed and more flawed than you -but as your former pastor you already know that.
If the world would just agree with me and see that the Great Commission is Supreme and most important- we wouldn't have all this trouble.
When will your church (and others) agree with Jesus????, and I sure hope that in our flawed attempts to obey Jesus we will get something right and have souls saved for eternity.
I still think we have far to great a focus on more BUTTS, BUILDINGS and greater BUDGETS than we do about Making disciples who make disciples.
I guess when we stand before God we'll see if more BUTTS, BUILDINGS, and BUDGETS is more important than DISCIPLES even though satan has us tricked into thinking ??? Who's right?? Who thinks they are doing it? Who???? What??? HOW??? is right????
I always wanted to say BUTTS from the pulpit...
Mike, next time you sing in church -say BUTTS for me!
BUTTS -BUTTS- BUTTS making more disciples who make disciples so more BUTTS can make more disciples out of BUTTS! (With no buildings or budgets). HMMMM! What will we BUTTS do with all the money?
I took my medicine too late today!
You just cannot offend BUTTS!
BUT TTTT......
Can we make it to 30 so I can be King of Blogland?
I'm tired of superhero, I want to be king of the hill with no PRIDE!
(BIG HONKIN' HUGE LAUGH FIRST THING TODAY!) Thanks, Bob.
i hope my boss enjoys it as much as you did...
Man, I've been reading these blogs for the last 20 minutes and I just now got to the bottom of the page. Incredible! Great dialogue, but at the end of it all I've come to a conclusion. Christ is the answer to the problems in the church.I really believe the Great Commission is a very natural response to a legitimate reception of the Gospel of Truth and the Babtism of the Holy Spirit. The movement started over two thousand years ago. It was a command given by the same One who spoke all of creation into existence. It shall and will go forth! Christ is the answer.
Bob,
Here's a thought. Could it be that a better word than "flawed" would be "finished?"
It's apparent that all of us who are working to lead the next generation into the Kingdom are products of Christendom. America - born out of a passion for the Gospel - is a product of Christendom and was the most blessed nation on earth for her first 150 years or so.
Could it be that Christendom as we know it was at one time powerful and effective for a season...a season that is now coming to a close to make way for the next move of God?
Just a thought.
Oo! I wanna be 30! I wanna be 30!
Too Late!!! I beat you to it.
Post a Comment
<< Home