I aksed some tough questions
I asked Alan Hirsch author of several books some questions and comments:
I wrote: Jesus is Lord (mDNA).
Jesus is Lord and He also empowers us through the Holy Spirit to carry on His mission, the Great Commission, our Co-Mission with God.
Alan, where is the Holy Spirit in all of this? This is not an attack, I just want to hear you flesh this out more fully.
The NT Church and underground Chinese Church were Holy Spirit empowered movements. Was it really persecution that spurred them or was it really the power of the Holy Spirit flowing through them as they surrendered to His will? This is why I’m toying with hsDNA (Holy Spirit empowered DNA) because we need Holy Spirit power to make Jesus Lord and without Holy Spirit power we will never fulfill the Jesus Mission passed down to all Christ followers. I am discovering that this Holy Spirit empowerment is what is likely missing in the church today. Do you agree that we need the Holy Spirit empowerment to truly make Jesus Lord? It is important since Jesus did say, “wait for the Holy Spirit”.
What are your thoughts? Is it true that we often do more professing than possessing the power of the Holy Spirit. Just wondering? We need to sneeze out the Holy Spirit living in us with boldness and power
Alan responded, "Bob, I was brought to the Lord in Pentie circles and at heart I still remain one (ssshhh, don’t tell!) I do believe that the HS plays a irreplaceable role. that’s why I like the phrase To love God by living under the Lordship of Jesus in the power of the Spirit.
I just don't think that we were meant to focus on the Spirit. He will just be with us. Our focus remains loving God in and through Jesus."
The planter responds, Interesting? Give us your thoughts.
posted by Bob Carder @ 11:15 AM
11 comments
11 Comments:
There's something to this... since our focus is continually challenged by Scripture to be fixed on Christ. But if the Spirit teaches (leads us into all truth) then we must listen, right? Which means attention. Synonymous with focus. Jesus also prescribed heavy focus on the Father as well (e.g. the Lord's prayer). A helplful book advocating a better Triune approach to life and spirituality is Worship, Community & the Triune God of Grace by James B. Torrance. Stuff by E.M. Bounds & Watchman Nee are helpful as well. Is that enought to stir the pot?
My focus as a Christian is to become more and more like Christ. The HS helps me do that, but my focus is not ON the HS, it is ON Christ. When we place our focus in the right place, then the HS is there with us, helping us learn what it means to be more Christlike.
My question would be then if my focus is on Christ isn't it automatically on the HS as the Holy Spirit is the vessel that came to us after Christ? This is just a question, not a criticism.
Hey Bob, just wanted to pass on a prayer need for Scott Troyer. He has a severe infection in his ear and has to have reconstructive surgery. They are actually transporting him to Indianapolis because of the severity of the situation. This has been a battle for quite some time, so I believe that has to do with the severity as well. Thought I'd pass that along. Blessings on you!!!
Hi Bob, I got to your site through Tom Carpenter's. I just started blogging myself; it's an interesting outlet. I've been thinking a lot about the Church lately. I'll be checking back.
Bob, I don't think I am out of sync with the church's thinking on this. I fully believe in the presence and power of the Holy Spirit. Especially for mission and witness, but I simply don't believe He is is the focal point of our relationship with the TRinity. I believe it is the Jesus the mediator that provides the entry point. this is what it means to be a follower of Christ...a Christ-ian.
And just for the record, I don't appreciate your belligerant tone in this matter. I have never deleted any comment you have made on my site as you suggest. I value your insights and passion in these matters.
Alan, you miss something so central that I am almost without the words.
I agree with what you say here in large part. But a movement such as what you describe will not happen here in America or even in Australia without the fullness of the Holy Spirit's power leading it and living at it's core. To assume that the Holy Spirit is just following along presents a very flawed message and approach. The Holy Spirit must be at the core of the movement and all Christ followers under the Holy Spirit's leadership must be charging ahead behind Him to accomplish the mission, our Co-Mission the Great Commission of Jesus given to each of us.
The Holy Spirit isn't just walking along. He must be leading and we must be following His leadership. Anything other than that is just another man made approach in hopes of leading a movement that cannot be stopped. Consider the fact that Jesus said in the Great Commission -the Holy Spirit would help us fulfill this humanly impossible Commission. We need the Holy Spirit. I need Him and so do you.
While I may come across belligerent it isn't really what it is, I am passionate about doing what Jesus left for us to do. The truth is that there is a great necessity for the Holy Spirit to lead a movement that cannot be stopped much like that of the New Testament. When the Holy Spirit showed up, the Church took off. And when His role is minimized the movement is in danger of being squelched.
Thus you do see the problem with the American Church. The Holy Spirit will be the only way we will ever have enough power to accomplish such a movement as He serves united with the other 2 parts of the Trinity to accomplish the Jesus movement given to each of us to personally fulfill. With Him it will happen, without Him it will never happen.
I find Alan Hirsch to be prone playing loose with the truth. As an example, I notice you never said or implied that your comments were deleted from Alan's site. Yet Alan attempts to make this slur against you, Bob.
If you can't trust Alan with basic facts, how can you trust his scholarship?
Short answer: you can't. He plays fast and loose with the facts there, too.
Alan, you're basically ethically disoriented.
Mike, the Holy Spirit's role is much much more than making us like Christ, He also empowers us to live like Christ and if we do live like Him we will see the supremacy of the Great Commission mandate and your need for the Holy Spirit in order to be empowered to do so.
Why do you think the Church is so scared of the Holy Spirit in general?
The Triune God left the Holy Spirit when Jesus left us. Now what is so hard to see about the importance of this? I do not minimize Christ in any of this. I maximize the Holy Spirit because He alone will help us live in Christlike living and Great Commission obedience.
Jesus intercedes for us now. But the Holy Spirit empowers us NOW to fulfill the mission and without His fullness in our lives we will not meet the expectations that Jesus have for all Christ followers.
Ministry is shallow and falls short without God's Holy Spirit.
David, I did confront Alan on a deleted post in an earlier response on his blog. It just vanished! Maybe I did something. Maybe the server on his end did something wrong. I do believe Alan didn't deliberately do it.
But as you see, I do rise up on those who appear to be protecting themselves by deleting comments.
I do not think the church is scared of the HS, in general, as you ask. I wonder if the church is just not accessing the HS as fully as possible? Don't know.
I read your post in answer to mine and it seems to me we are in agreement. Am I missing something you're trying to tell me?
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