Monday, November 05, 2007

No ax to grind - part 2 "Clarification"

I am troubled that some may assume things or jump to the wrong conclusions in my post - "No Axe To Grind - Part One". I'm just not grinding away at the church, because I choose not to.

Let me be very clear: Nothing has detoured me from the conviction of fulfilling the Great Commission by insisting that the words of Jesus were meant for every follower of Jesus Christ to be owned and fulfilled personally. If there is a hook, I'm not letting the church or Church -the Body of Christ off of it. We will stand before Jesus on this point. I want to stand before God with disciples who are making disciples who are making disciples. I have spent to much of my life letting believers off the hook on living out the Great Commission personally. The price is high and I am paying it by insisting that this is truth to be lived out by all who follow Jesus. I don't have time to argue the point because I am seeing believers own this truth and personally multiply other disciples. It is working, because we are expecting more, because Jesus expects more.

Let me be very clear: I have used useless rhetoric (at times) trying to bring the church in America back to the supremacy of the Great Commission as the most important thing for every believer. I do not need to argue the point in heated discussions because all you have to do is read Matthew 28 and either you believe we are all supposed to make disciples personally and are making them or you do not and are not making them. I do not need to spend my time in useless rhetoric trying to convince the church/leaders in America that what Jesus said in the Great Commission is to be obeyed personally by all. I do know that some of you who frequent this blog do not hold your people to the highest standard of being disciples who personally multiply other disciples. I confess with deep regret that I did not hold people to that standard when I was pastoring because I thought all I had to do is preach it and do it corporately. I do repent of that. I should have insisted that all Christ followers live the Great Commission personally by making disciples. But I didn't, I gave them an easy way out. Just one little man's confession here.

Let me be clear: As for the tone of this blog, I don't need to point out the problems of the church in America because you know as well as I do what they are, that is, unless you are an ostrich with your head in the sand. As human beings we have all contributed to these problems.

Finally, let me be very clear: I celebrate what God is doing wherever He is doing what He is doing and however He is doing it. God is at work in the world. Whenever the family of God is mobilized to make disciples who multiply other disciples we are seeing exponential multiplying growth of disciples. Whenever the family of God is not mobilized to make disciples who make disciples we are not seeing dramatic growth of disciples (I call this addition).

So I choose not to be ax grinding the rest of my life referencing the church in America. I love being a part of the body of Christ and I am saddened when people assume I am not for the Church -that is the body of Christ. Why would anyone be opposed to being in the Body of Christ when they are already in the Body of Christ?

If anyone wants to be a part of a movement of disciple makers who are making disciples who themselves are making disciples, give me a call. I would love to share the stories of transformed lives who are instruments of God's transformation in others.

This is the best part of my life, it truly is. So for the tone of this blog, I want to challenge believers to multiply themselves in those who do not know Christ while also celebrating what God is doing in the world.

Now are we sure we understand each other?

17 Comments:

At November 05, 2007 6:49 AM, Blogger Michael Ehret said...

exactly what I assumed, mi amigo.

 
At November 06, 2007 1:04 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

No matter how much you do, or how much God does through you, over 99.999999% of humanity will end up in the lake of fire suffering for eternity.

Maybe active Christians can reduce that to 99.99999%.

Doesn't really matter, though, because you'll be sitting in comfort in heaven gazing down on those poor suffering souls. You'll still be able to reassure them that God loves them, but this time it'll be followed by a hearty laugh.

 
At November 06, 2007 9:05 AM, Blogger Bob Carder said...

David, where will you be?

Every soul is of value to God, you me and the entire world. One soul transformed by the power of God is worth more than the riches of this entire world.

David, where are you spiritually. It does matter. All that you speak of matters. One act of redemption, one cup of cold water to the thirsty, one soul transformed by God is worth it.

Explain more, my friend. I am anxiously waiting for your return.

 
At November 06, 2007 9:06 AM, Blogger Bob Carder said...

Thanks Mike!

Hey, how are doing these days?

 
At November 06, 2007 3:32 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I reitterate my statement from from the blog "No Axe..." Part 1. This blog was very well stated with plenty of heart and compassion displayed about your convictions. Terry's remark of "missed it again" in part 1, on the other hand, shows where his heart is and displays why a lot of people that may agree with the disciples making disciples movement, take the same points you make and go some where else and employ them and choose not to be a part of a movement where they get bashed. Just a thought! I know Terry is probably a good speaker and salesman and can come across as a little manipulative. But where is his fruit? Love, peace, gentleness, etc. Just a thought!

 
At November 06, 2007 4:54 PM, Blogger Dr. Terry M. Goodwin said...

All that from 3 words??????

Accurate words too!

 
At November 06, 2007 5:30 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bob, the point is that the vast majority of humanity will end up suffering in the lake of fire for eternity.

Now God would have know that this is the result of the system He has set up.

So looking past the "every soul is valued by God" and "God is love" mantras, we see that, in the end, it doesn't matter how loving or kind God is, your efforts anyone's efforts are a mere scratch on the surface.

Here is a thought: would you give up your heavenly reward to enable others to be saved.

Imagine praying to God like this:

Dear God, I am offering my place in heaven if it means another 1000 people go there in my place. Please send me to hell for eternity so that others may live in heaven forever. Amen.

 
At November 06, 2007 5:45 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

And the sarcasm is all too familiar as well.

 
At November 08, 2007 5:29 AM, Blogger rickdugan said...

I suspect a lot more will get to heaven than we expect. Probably so many that it will make us angry cuz we'll be wondering how they got there even though they weren't as committed as the rest of us.

Grace has a way of making religious people mad ever since the gospels.

How would it make us feel if everyone got there?

 
At November 09, 2007 3:11 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

You must be listening to a different Gospel.

Only those who believe on and in Jesus will have everlasting life in Heaven.

That excludes: Infants, people of low IQ, people of other faiths, all people born before Jesus, all people who do not believe.

I'm sure you will agree that most people do not accept Jesus during their lifetimes. It's too late when you're dead.


Them's the rules.

 
At November 10, 2007 3:25 PM, Blogger Lori said...

As for the prayer about going to hell so others will live in heaven...isn't that along the same lines as Paul's prayer in Romans 9:3 "that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh."? Laying down your life - even that of eternity if it were possible - is the heart of the Message. Read Romans from start to finish for the details about the groups mentioned (those before Christ, infants, ect.), but I believe there is something to what was said...
Jesus emptied himself and became nothing for us and we should have the same heart for others. This is why people willingly leave loved ones to preach the Gospel or are willing to die to see souls saved. Romans 10 says some will believe, and some will not (verses 14-17). And, some will believe without knowing the One in whom they believe...I think it was Helen Keller who said she had always believed in Jesus but had never known His name.
God is just. He knows the heart of each of us and where the lines of faith have been drawn in our personal beliefs. It isn't about the rules but about knowing Him...and partaking of Him in this life and sharing Him with others. And, about the "rules" - you are missing the whole point. It isn't about hell or heaven for that matter - but do you know Him?

 
At November 10, 2007 6:28 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

It's not about going to hell or heaven?

What? You regard this short existence as more significant than your eternal destiny? You must be mislead.

It is entirely about going to heaven or hell - remember eternity is a long time, especially the last bit.

We are asked to believe, not have knowledge. Knowledge is looked down upon in the Bible.

 
At November 12, 2007 1:52 AM, Blogger rickdugan said...

David,

Fortunately God doesn't play by the rules or none of us would make it.

 
At November 12, 2007 4:37 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

It was God who made up the whole system of rules involving sacrifice for the remission of sins.

He felt so bound by these rules that he gave His Son as a sacrifice.

If God hadn't told us about this system, no modern human would have invented it.

Anyway, the point is God did play by the rules - His rules.

 
At November 13, 2007 1:56 AM, Blogger rickdugan said...

The rules are grounded in grace, love, mercy, and forgiveness. Jesus didn't die to maintain the rules, he died to absorb into himself all the sin and death of the world. When you remove love from the equation, you're left with nothing but a legal transaction. That's not what salvation is all about.

How do you feel about the story of the Prodigal Son? I don't know you, David, but your posts come across to me as something the older brother would write.

But that could be the limitations of the internet and not be representative of what you really think.

 
At November 13, 2007 4:54 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Bible might say that the "greatest of these is love", but consider the eternal perspective.

When people end up in the lake of fire for eternity, will God still love them? God's love is now a mere technicality. What matters, eternally, is their legal status with respect to the rules.

So the real picture is that whilst grace, love, mercy and forgiveness are important in this life, they fade away over eternity, and all that remains is a legal status.

Be eternally focussed, Rick. That's all that matters in the end.

 
At November 13, 2007 11:26 AM, Blogger Bob Carder said...

David,Judy and Rick, this is great dialog.

Let me add to the conversation: I'd like to remain concerned about the lost and fulfilling the Great Commission because of my desire to gather and ready the sheep for eternity. To be and do that, I need to bring a little heaven here so that those I seek to reach for Jesus will see Jesus in my life and want to join Him in heaven some day.

The eternal view is near worth-less if we overlook the harvest of the unreached souls.

It is a sin, not that you or anyone else is sinning to think only of ourselves with regard to eternity.

God help us if we stand before Jesus and we do so without those we personally led to Jesus. I pray God will bring me a harvest of Christ following disciples who would not have made it without God redeeming them through my life and the Holy Spirit's redemptive work.

God has called us to a prepared work, all He needs is for us to complete what He has begun and who are prepared by the Holy Spirit to receive Him.

It must be hard to be God. To see people reject Him and spend eternity without Him brings a kind of pain none of us can begin to understand. As a parent loves his/her lost child forever, so must God weep in agony and for eternity regarding those who depart from Him by their choice in a Christ-less and hopeless eternity.

I know this because I grieve for those who chose to reject Christ and in death they are separated from God until the judgment and for eternity. If I pain then God must pain so much more. The departed without Jesus are not forgotten.

God has called us to a prepared work. Eternity is not the goal. Obeying Jesus is the goal and the prize is heaven for all who obey Him.

 

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