Is Worship more important than the Great Commission?
The dialogue continues....
See: sunministries.blogspot.com Article: "Where are you fulfilling Jesus Mission?" scroll down to comment 26 or 27 and hear what Richard has to say. It's more than powerful!
But -you must fasten your seat belts for the ride
posted by Bob Carder @ 5:09 PM
15 comments
15 Comments:
I read it, and it leaves me somewhat confused...but at the same time in total agreement.
He says: "Part of the problem is that we often ask the wrong questions and find ourselves having to choose between two or more things that are not necessarily mutually exclusive, and, in fact, may be so interwoven that separating them renders them less than what they really are." But then goes on to separate them. Or does he?
It is confusing becuase he uses terms like: "qualify" and "Distinct" and "Condition(al)". But the thrust of his argument seems to be exactly what I was saying a few weeks ago on this blog: That the Great Commission and Worship are inseparable and the, in fact, the GC is THE supreme act of worship. By being obedient to God to spritually "be frutiful and multiply" we are answering God's call to act in a way that brings glory to him in the most ulitmate and creative way, which is to say we worship the creator when we take part in the "creation" process.
Jesus trained for 30 years for 3 years of ministry. Jesus I am sure, did influence people along the way in those first years but that is not what is written about. Secondly, Romans 12:1&2 tells us... that "to offer your body as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God-this is your spiritual act of worship"...so fulfilling the great commission can be pleasing to God...as it is done in a holy and pleasing way.
Bob Carter,
Thanks for your concern...honestly, though, I'm not seeing primarily "challenging" (to quote your statement to me on D.F.'s blog), but "dude, this is COOL and I AGREE!" Well, I AM seeing challenging, in a way of course, but its a challenge I've been facing and dealing with for the four years I've been a part of this church plant here in L.A. In fact, I was just talking AND crying with a good friend late last night over a late-night dinner run about our ecclesiology's getting between our Christology and our mission. Priorities get reoriented when you start to share stories where you literally heard Jesus knocking on your door in the middle of the night.
God bless,
Jason
Thanks Anne, Obedience is always a holy act and is always pleasing to God. You are right! Let's reignite a movement that moves us out by living the Great Commission purposes.
Everything falls in line when the G.C. is being personally fufilled.
You bless me - thanks for joining us.
If you come back soon -we would love to hear you expand your thought a little deeper so we can get a bigger picture of your thoughts. Thanks!
Welcome aboard Jason. May your tribe increase as we -a few- make the main thing the main thing. You bless me. Thanks for your clarification and wonderful input.
God is breaking down our baggage and many are begin to see things like Jesus intends.
Bless you bro,
My thoughts well sometimes christians get frustrated training so long for ministry. But I have been told that Jesus trained for 30 years for 3 years of ministry. I am not sure that all the "training" that goes out in the church, seminary, listening to lectures...is perfect, but I also think that we need to be careful to not give new christians more responsibility then they can bear. Secondly as we fulfill the G.C. let's be Godly about it. Let us be careful to not nullify other people's missions- to feed the poor for example. I do find this idea on this blog on the G.C. refreshing. The great commission says that we should teach them to obey everything I (Jesus)have commanded you. So what do you think ...everything is? and what do you think about the comment made to me that Jesus trained for thirty for 3 years of ministry?
Anne, since Jesus was Jewish it is important to note that religious leaders had to prepare for religious duties for 30 years. Jesus knew what He was doing and He had something more sgnificant in mind by obeying that custom.
Every Jewish young man lived to be chosen by a religios leader (Rabbi)to follow in his footsteps. So they studied whole books of the Bible and large portions of the Old Testament if not all of it and the very best of the best could quote Scripture from memory. Afterall the greatest honor is to be chosen to follow in his Masters footsteps! The very best of the best were chosen. There was little hope for fisherman to be called by a Rabbi to follow Him! It just didn't happen.
That is it didn't happen until Jesus passed by and called them. I always wondered why these guys would leave their nets and boats and fishing gear behind by the cal of Jesus but now I understand. Jesus was a spiritual leader and when He called them to what every man longed for (a place of honor to follow their masters footsteps)these men leaped for joy and immediately began following Him (Jesus).
When Jesus gave the Great Commission He never said go get prepared -instead He said go or "as you are going" and then He ended this supreme Commission by reminding us that He will be with us as we go. We don't need more training we need more of the Holy Spirit leading us. We cannot do it without Jesus anyway.
America is one of the most educated nations in the world and we think we can't make disciples until we are prepared. In the poor countries of India and China and Africa as soon as someone accepts Christ they are told to lead others and guess what (?) they are doing it. Every day disciples making disciples are growing so fast we cannot even imagine such growth in America.
Anne - let's all deprogram from our European model for ministry. Satan has deceived us and we have fallen prey and the movement of Christianity is on the back burner while Churchianity in America takes precedence.
I encourage you not to let new believers or older ones off the hook. Jesus will not let us off the hook either. And for the poor, if you follow the Great Commission then you cannot without obeying it fully which also covers feeding the poor etc. If we live the Great Commission we will see fruit and we will have to live incarnationally and to not live incarnational authentic lives will result in lessoned obedience which also means no fruit either.
Anne - If you can get this you will experience a transformation the America may not be ready for. But oh the joy of seeing others transformed and see others transformed themselves.
God is teaching you if you will keep listening with an open mind. Deprogramming is tough and the plan Jesus has for us is easier than we have made it.
If I understand correctly, The Apostles had an intensive three year preparation before the GC was given prior to the ascention. And these lessons were taught by God himself! Even after the GC was given them, they waited for the gift of the Spirit, which was a unique gift that gave them understanding and remembrance of the Christ's teaching.
Now I am not saying this is necessary to be an active witness, but prudence does tell us that to be effective in mission (anywhere and everywhere we are), we must first lay hold of the devout life, practice self-mortification, study, etc. Certainly you can sanctify your work-place, home, and such in this process (it is after all lifelong), but to neglect it is a sin against prudence.
It is better to master your passions before you "go out" into the world so that you do not fall into the temptations she offers.
Slatts,
Tell me how you are fulfilling the Great Commission and making disciples who make disciples. You seem very educated and trained. Tell us and others in blogland about those disicples who have come to know Christ through your life. Who have you discipled and tell me about the transformation that took place.
Statts said:It is better to master your passions before you "go out" into the world so that you do not fall into the temptations she offers.
The Planter: Nothing could be further from the truth than your comments directly above. We must let our passion for others to know Jesus to be immediately. We were never commanded to be holy and isolated Monks. Nor were we called to file into cathedrals and count that as our act of obedience full and finished!
Constantine was not a good guy! He institutionalized the church of Jesus Christ and we have repeatedly made that mistake over and over again.
By the way, does your church have it all right? Do they (you) need to change anything for greater effectiveness.
Several questions I am hoping you will address. It will take courage and honest reflection to address them.
Love ya friend,
Slatts – While these leaders underwent such training, there are many examples of others that did not. Stephen, Phillip, the Ethiopian Eunuch, Paul. The Apostle’s understanding was not a one-time gift. We see many references in Scripture to God giving us wisdom and spiritual understanding, not just the Apostles. I do not think anyone here is advocating a neglect of spiritual disciplines, just that once you have the Holy Spirit you have all power and authority to immediately join Christ in fulfilling the Great Commission. The key here is that we go in Christ’s power and not our own.
It seems my language has led to misunderstandings again, unfortunately. Please allow me to clarify. I certain did not mean to imply that until we reach a certain level of catechetical sufficiency, we should be like monks. No, as I mentioned, it seems right to me to be witnesses in the capacity at which we are (sanctifying our work-places, home-lives, etc). But for missionary work that is strictly speaking, going out for the purpose of evangelization (like a mission trip to Jamaica) a time of preparation is necessary. I do not think there would be much disagreement here. All are called to evangelize, but some works call for more training than others.
As for the question of how many people and how I am living out the GC in my life. I appreciate the questions, but it is really a matter between myself, those persons, and God. I do not want to overestimate my value in the lives of others. Surely the Holy Spirit is the musician and I the out-of-tune piano. I fear answering the question simply to prove myself does violence to humility.
Perhaps the question of how is answerable. I am a 5th grade PSR (parish school of religion) teacher of 8 bright and beautiful children. My home is a missionary country, and in my work as a substitute teacher, I have found oppotunities to have good conversations with students. But most of all I pray, and ask Jesus to have mercy on myself and the world.
As for the other comments about Constantine, my Church and whether it has everything right and/or needs change, they really are out of place here and I'm not sure why they were brought up. Nevertheless, if you are still interested, I will email you about them.
Terry, you are right about God giving the Spirit and wisdom to individuals and this is no doubt true of us also. But the gift of the Spirit to the Apostles was unique and gave them the charism of both unfailing remembrance of Christ's teachings and in some instances the gift to write inspired documents. Certainly we do not receive these particular gifts. I agree with everything else you have said.
Slatts, Oh boy! Nothing is out of place in blogland. I do have a reason for asking! Interesting?
I just read through this thread and in thinking about Slatts words about preparation I think I can contribute something.
Yes, the disciples were in an intensive 3-year training mode, but they were called to an extraordinary task that none of us are called to; being the first foundation blocks of the church.
To get at the heart of what Bob talks about here I think you have to reflect on people like the woman at the well who had an encounter with Christ and immediately became the catalyst of a revival in her town as she left Jesus sitting at the well, ran back to the city, and began telling people that she had found the Messiah. The city came running and Jesus ended up spending three days (I think) teaching them the Kingdom of God.
You have to think about people like the Gadarenes demoniac who upon his encounter with Christ wanted to jump in the boat, join the clergy, and go with Jesus and the disciples. But Jesus told him to just go tell everyone he knew what God had done for him. That man became the catalyst for the Decapolis revial which set the stage for Jesus preaching to and feeding thousands.
You have to think about people like Lydia, the formerly-possessed girl, the jailer and his family who became the core group of the church plant in Philipi.
Though I don't minimize the value of preparation and equipping, all that is really required for a person to become a disciple-maker is that they personally have an encounter with Jesus Christ.
Bill you hit the bullseye, thanks for your insight and ability to communicate very clearly.
Let's open the doors and release the flock into the world of incarnational living. The world longs to see Jesus and be changed by Him. We may be the only Jesus some will ever see. It doesn't take any preparation to represent Jesus incarnationally in the world.
No time for hiding in our pews and then getting into our cars and then driving into our garages and shutting the door on the world and her needs and then doing the same ignoring thing day after day. Our neighbors need Jesus and it is time we stop hiding Him under the bushel a place called the church while forgetting we are the Church.
Times call for radical Christ living and sacrifice of our own selfishness for His cause -lost people.
Bill -you must follow your dream and use that gift and desire to honor Jesus!
A question comes to mind. If the apostle's mission was extraordinary, then what criteria were used to rule the Samaritan woman, the Gadarenes demoniac, and Lydia as being ordinary.
It is after all the great commission in Mt28 that we normally interpret as applying most specifically to us, where those spoken to those particular individuals represent more individualist roles, not general statements to all. It kind of seems like a role reversal...suddenly the commission for which the Apostles were readied for 3 years was extraordinary, and the individual missions of specific persons is the ordinary.
As I've stated a couple of times, we are all called to evangelize exactly where we are, from the get go! But if you are going to send people "out" (out of the ordinary aspects of their daily lives) as sheep amongst wolves, then preparation is mandatory by reason of prudence.
I agree that we should meditate on those individuals and the commands Christ gave them. They had extraordinary encounters, but Christ told them to go back to the ordinary aspects of their lives and be a sign of Him...if he wanted them to go out, He would have prepared them for such "extraordinary' mission.
Post a Comment
<< Home