Just because it looks better doesn't mean it is.
Are you stuck in outdated methodology? Does the same-o have you stuck? Is it possible that what you think is good may not be better? Just because it has worked it the past doesn't mean it works today.
We are discovering that there is another way to plant churches. Sometimes we think same-o when we should/could be thinking in terms of new-o. Why keep doing what we've always done as the only way? Why do we idolize methods at the expense of the mission?
Lunacy = Doing the same thing the way we always have while expecting differing results. That is lunacy! Why would we rather live in lunacy? What's up with that? Why not try something new when it comes to church planting?
Let's agree:
#1. We don't plant Churches, God does.
#2. We are to make disciples, that is our job.
#3. God never called us to plant churches, He calls us to make disciples who do the same.
Now consider this in planting churches. Instead of trying to collect a crowd and have a large new church launch, why not let God provide you with one or two people who can multiply disciples quickly (the Bible calls these guys person of peace) who can do the same. Instead of launching with a plan, a program and a precious crowd, why not launch a disciple making movement with one or two people? Starting with two or three disciple-makers could really be a stronger foundation than 2-300 shifting saints, if you know what I mean. I believe we often start new churches backwards. In the traditional sense we gather the crowd and have a big launch. In disciple making movements we start with a few and in time we end up with more disciples who make disciples.
Did it ever occur to you that starting with only a few can result in more? Did it ever occur to you that if we would get the making of disciples right and as the main thing, that God would birth more churches filled with disciple makers?
Did Jesus ever give us the traditional model/method for planting churches? Or, did He prove to us that He will birth more Churches as we make disciples who will do the same?
It is more than likely that if we started disciple making movements with the few, we could end up with more. Are we doing church planting backwards? Are we measuring the wrong things?
Just because it looks better doesn't mean it is.
Thoughts???
posted by Bob Carder @ 9:15 PM
13 comments
13 Comments:
I agree with you, Bob, but I'm wondering if you can describe some specific examples where this has actually happened and tell us what it looked like.
Hey Bob:
I was wondering how you view multi-sight changing the way church plants will look in the future…is the way you described a way of the past?
ps...I added you to my blog
phill longmire
Bob you asked "Did Jesus ever give us the traditional model/method for planting churches?" and I answer - no.
HOW ABOUT ANOTHER QUESTION?
Does the Bible ever support the current model of a Sr. Pastor led church?
And just to follow up that question with another, do we have to structure our churches today the way they were structured in the NT?
Good question, Rick! I know what I think, but I'd love to hear Bobert expound on this.
Oh brother Rick!!!! What we describe must never be confused with structure. (Of course it will have structure but the structure is only as needed and it is never replicated because all organic disciple making movements have there own specific challenges. However, less structure is more. What we speak of here is a disciple making mindset/heart passion/willing to die for change in thinking, caring and living.
The disciples and early Christ followers were all about Jesus and when Jesus is all you have Jesus is all you need. And when you have everything you still have nothing without Jesus!
Rick, referencing your first question, hang on! It is not so much what it looks like it is more about what it is like. Our St. Louis disciple making movement resulted in a God birthed Church in just 4 months. It has no buildings, no full time pastor, no budget, no church staffed programs, no desire for a collection of bodies for the sake of counting more in the name of reaching more. And yet, we meet corporately and every week in small groups across the county wherever God leads us to meet for disciple making and also for God encounters with people.
Disciple making movements will look differently because that's the way organic things grow. They may manifest differently but as I look out the window of my hotel here in Portland I see many different things growing differently with differing colors and shapes, but they all have one thing in common and that is that they multiply and if they do not multiply the species will die. In our Disciple driven movement the mDNA or disciple driven supreme purpose(never compromised) or original DNA of making disciples who make disciples is our do or die reason for our existence. We live because multiplying disciples does lead to God-birthed Churches and the cycle of making the main thing the main thing is repeated all over again and again.
What we describe is happening all around the world and we are beginning to see it arrive in America. If God can do this in China, India, Africa etc. we believe and are now seeing Him do it here.
As we build the St. Louis disciple driven movement we are now joining with God to increased the depth of our movement foundation. As that foundation deepens we believe God will add floor after floor of new disciple driven movements leading to God birthed Churches all across St. Louis metro. Our belief is that it starts small and slow during the foundation period. We are like race horses in the gate. When the time is right and when God has prepared us well, the horses with be released and every horse will lead a movement of disciple making. It will quickly spin out of control. I believe int he next four years you will not believe how doing things God's way does result in exponential and geometric progression growth with is unlimited as the mDNA remains pure and not distracted or allowed to mutate into cancer cells.
Hey Phil, you would ask me to open up a can of worms. You rascal!
I do believe that Conrad Lowe is correct to say that large multi campus churches will thrive in the next 20 years. Multi site churches will be found in our backyards while smaller churches will dwindle and in many cases eventually close their doors. They are reaching people -but there are deeper issues that keep me from working in those venues. I need to use what time I have to work in a movement that God wants to sweep America.
Mega has much to offer the consumer driven church through attraction and offerings that look more like Hollywood than hillsides feeding of the 5,000 plus.
My issue with multi site campuses is that they feed this consumerism and don't even get me started on the disciples making disciples missing mDNA piece for all Christ followers.
In the disciple driven emerging movements we will spin our disciple making movements in a way that looks more like a scattering sneeze than a planned birth, or a burp! All the sudden in a sneezing church it just happens and you have a whole county of sunflowers birthing disciples who make disciples until God births another church and then another sneeze. Sneezes can be highly contagious and when infected with Jesus and the need to make disciples for Jesus as the main thing you sneeze and sneeze and sneeze. I need a good burp but the sneeze if more refreshing!
So instead of a mothering Church spinning out another campus and then another site and even satellite sites -it may look more successful in man's measure but the sneezing church will end up with a mDNA (Missional Disciple Driven -DNA) that will result in smaller dots with greater sneezes resulting in more dots with more sneezing.
Imagine a church of 50-100 our first church in S.L. who sneezes out 100 movements of 50 - 100 who sneeze and sneeze.
What would you rather be part of (realizing God is using the mega -deal for His good) of burping church or a sneezing "scattering" organic sneezing infecting movement of resulting in hundreds of thousands of sneeze-rs across your city or would you rather be part of a mega of 2,000 members birthing more of the same of the same-o burping blurp-bleeps.
Sneezing churches don't need million dollar facilities nor do they need to cater to consumerism and fancy buffets!
I guess you know where I am. Excuse me I have to sneeze, hurry quick run for the door.
Sneezing or burping -you decide!
Here's what I think about Rick's question about structure:
Simple answer: No, we do not have to structure our churches the same way because God is not about churches, He is about His people in the Church.
God's about heart and obedience and fruit. If you can do that in the NT model, He's happy. If you can do that in the attractional model, He's happy. He's even happy if you don't do that in ANY model, but your own.
If you've got a heart attuned to God's heart; if you're obedient to God's call; if you bear fruit -- God's smiling, man.
Mike, Define fruit and obedience to what in what.
I want you to address the Great Commission commands which cover it all.
Attractional church have some trouble with this as do all of us. Do you go to a church with a disciple making/driven DNA for all? We call this mDNA! (Missional DNA)
Bob: Well the fruits are defined in Scripture. Obedience? Obedience is doing what you're told -- because I said so!
Mike, great answer!
I love the phrase, "Because I said so!" And also, "I told you so!"
It's a personality thing.
You should have listened!
Now what in the world would make you think I'm not listening? Because I believe I've never been listening better...
The problem with looking at the NT for a specific model is that there are multiple models. Just reading through Acts you can see organizational development of the church alongside spiritual development. Besides, since most of us don't live in a Hellenistic Jewish culture we're going to need to do things a bit differently.
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