Thursday, July 26, 2007

But of course...

All this humbugaroni (my new word) about peace at any cost and the cost is usually the Message of Christ diluted and ineffective. Peace at any cost is death to a movement of God.

I know the traditional American church functions the way they (we)have been taught. I pastored for 24 years and did what I thought I was supposed to do. Had a great ministry when measured by the standards of men. Not so good when measured by how I led my flock the make disciples who make disciples. While at this blog we point out the problems and dialogs about solutions, the problem is not personally directed at any believer. The problem is the problem! The problem is that for generations we have misunderstood the Mission of Christ and how Christ originally intended for the church to function. We have been taught wrong. I taught some of you and others wrongly. I was taught wrong how to live as a little Christ in the world so that through me Jesus could work to redeem others. I was a good church member but also a poor incarnational follower of Christ.

So when pointing to the areas needed for a turn around in the traditional Sunday going church in America, we need to approach/confront the methods and traditions of man along side of the Scriptural mandate in the Great Commission and examples of the early church. You cannot do this without conflict and even division. You cannot do it without personally becoming conflicted. In Corinthians 11:9, Paul makes it very clear, "But, of course there must be divisions among you so that those of you who are right will be recognized!" I not in any way raising myself up as right! But I'll admit I always think I am right and must also confess that I am not always right. I just like you in this regard.

When seeking for a movement of change there are four steps to the change process.
People move from:
Unawareness to Awareness to Embracing to Implementation to Results.

The church is America is largely stuck in the UNAWARE mode. I contend that there will be pain when we allow the Holy Spirit to lead us in leading people into AWARENESS. Only then will the church move into the implementation of making disciples who make disciples leading to a movement of results.

By the way, when I discovered the Mission of Christ to make disciples who make disciples as the main thing, I was conflicted. The way I viewed church was flipped upside down. I knew something was wrong for a long time, I just couldn't discern what. The result was that I had to give up everything in my life that hindered my effectiveness in being a part of a Disciples making disciples movement of the Holy Spirit. We call that going through the wringer, a look at the church with a fresh set of eyes. The process begins with being willing to lay down the methods and traditions and focus on the simple Great Commission mandate to make disciples who make disciples. This is the benchmark of success in ministry and in life.

Now that I've given up some religious stuff I once enjoyed, I now enjoy some God stuff I would never have experienced any other way. I had to die and suffer while letting go of churchiology/traditions/methods in order to experience Christianity as a continuing and expansive move of God in the world filled with life transformation and almost daily miracles.

But, of course there will be divisions, conflicts and conflicted hearts as we help move the flock from Unawareness to Awareness to Embracing to Implementation to Results. Some will never move to awareness while others will follow in the footsteps of Jesus, which means we breath the dust made by His sandals as we follow ever so closely.

15 Comments:

At July 26, 2007 10:14 PM, Blogger Dr. Terry M. Goodwin said...

God has always sent people to confront the complacent. Many with harsh words and judgement. Most were killed by the peacemaking, unity at all costs crowd. Today is really not much different. The more things change the more they stay the same.

 
At July 27, 2007 5:29 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Those of us here who advocate peace and unity don't advocate it at "all costs" -- never at the cost of the message. But, there's a huge difference between bringing people along step by step in peace and unity and condemning the only model we've ever known from Day 1 of our Christian lives.

Of course there will be conflict. Of course there will be division. Of course there will be hurt feelings. But do you bulldoze people through that or do you kindly and gently take them by the hand and move them one, or two, steps at a time?

Yes there are Jeremiahs in our midst, and some of the folks here clearly have been given the role (praise God!), but we don't all have to be Jeremiah.

 
At July 27, 2007 1:23 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thank You Mike

 
At July 27, 2007 3:59 PM, Blogger Bob Carder said...

Come on, Mike! If you agree with what you have read at this blog that there is truth take the truth.Hate the messenger if you wish. What are you doing in your way or preferred approach to bring people along like you speak of.

God made me and I just suffer with an Apostolic gifting, a prophetic gifting and an evangelistic heart combined with a high "D" personality.

Why do you expect me to respond like you would to these issues. I'm responding out of my passion and giftedness along with some Holy Spirit tempering in my temperament. Believe me when I'm saying that I am holding back.

Mike, I'm doing the job out of gifting and passion, how are you spreading the truth you now see out of your gifting and passions?

Are you doing anything? Or are you just condemning those who push a little or lot harder than you. And what makes you an authority on passions, gifting, and temperaments?

So you don't like the approach here, fine, sift through it. Keep the message and shoot the messenger if you wish. Remember, there are those in leadership who respond to this approach and anything else would not draw them in.

We won't connect our message with everyone. But I am very deliberate in how I make the presentation because I am seeking to draw in those bulls in the china shop who make things happen. The Paul's of life are in my sights. And any one else who is brave enough to get out of their comfort zones and institutional consumerism.

I love to speak directly with you, brother Mike, I speak this way because I know you can handle your own.

Let's keep hammering the thick skull. Is that you or is it me?

 
At July 28, 2007 10:14 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Can you show me from my post above how you could possibly think that I would expect, let alone WANT, you to respond like me? How do you see that in that post? The whole POINT of the post is that we don't all have to be Jeremiah's. If God is placing that call on your life, that is fine. But I don't have that call on my life. The whole point of the post is that we are NOT the same, shouldn't be the same, in fact.

Hate the messenger? What world are you living in? Hate the messenger? How can I even respond to that when it should be completely clear that I love with a deep heart love. Pssshhh...

What am I doing? Well, not that it is any of your business, but I am meeting with people, living my walk before them and with them, walking with them through their trials, tribulations, and celebrations. I am writing God's truth in parables to expose people to that truth in ways that don't require them to come into the church building, if they don't want to.

Yep, God made you just as you are. I might question "why", but I'd never doubt His wisdom. And I'm OK with you just as youare.

Of COURSE you are spreading the word out of your gifting and passion! I swear, Bobert, you have forgotten everything we have ever talked about. You are giving me back my own arguments. I have said, consistently throughout this discussion, that you should do this your way and I should do it mine. That that is why God created each of us the way He did.

Condemining? Condemning? How do you get condemnation in my post? Really? Answer this. I cannot believe it. Point it out in my post.

Nothing makes me an authority. Did I say I was an authority? Did I claim authority? Did I even suggest authority?

Here's one thing you ARE right on. I don't like the approach. But I don't like it FOR ME FOR ME FOR ME. Not for you. Do what you like. I support your right to do the ministry God has given you your way. I EXPECT you to do that. Do you give me the same freedom?

The thick skull is not mine, brother.

 
At July 29, 2007 1:28 AM, Blogger Bob Carder said...

Oh Mike, you done went and fell over the cliff.

I do not care how you do ministry as long as you are doing His ministry.

You cannot escape your personally responsibility to make disciples who make disciples. By the way, that will not happen on Sunday morning.

I ouched you, didn't I?

Do it your way in your way but make sure what you do is His way/mission. The world is lost and dying without Jesus we have no time to defend what isn't working.

How is doing it your way as you put it, fulfilling the Great Commission? Now I'm preaching like I did when I was your pastor. I'm wondering if you are now thankful I am not now your pastor.

I'm glad I got a rise out of you.

This is important!

 
At July 29, 2007 8:40 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

You didn't answer my questions.

 
At July 29, 2007 8:43 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

How is it NOT fulfilling the Great Commission? I am interacting with people, I am sharing what Christ has done in my life, I am leading them to choose Him, I am pointing out why the world needs a Savior.

 
At July 29, 2007 11:30 AM, Blogger Bob Carder said...

Mike, I asked you how doing what you do your way is fulfilling the Great Commission? It doesn't mean my way is superior, I just seek to understand where you are coming from.

Now I'm thinking you and Bill both jumped over the cliff.

As you were ranting you asked many questions. Some of them were well-dah questions.

Which questions of the many ranting questions do you really want me to answer.

Did I really get the goat of an old goat, or are you messing with me. I love you, I really do.

 
At July 29, 2007 8:58 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey Bob,

Why do my comments not appear here? I keep trying and trying ...

Rick

 
At July 29, 2007 8:59 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well... that one just appeared. Frustrating cuz the other one's are gone...

 
At July 29, 2007 11:58 PM, Blogger Bob Carder said...

Rick, they are all here on my end. I never delete comments!

 
At July 31, 2007 2:43 PM, Blogger gltnforpnshmnt said...

wow, feels like i just walked into church here. sunday school class, maybe. or a board meeting, perhaps. yipes.

 
At July 31, 2007 10:27 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I know you didn't delete them. They just got lost somewhere in cyberspace. Oh, well...

 
At August 09, 2007 12:31 AM, Blogger Bob Carder said...

Keep writing for as good time.

 

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