Money, more feel goods and much missing
I got depressed today while listening to television preachers manipulating people to give money to their ministry. If you want to keep us on the air, send us a note, let us know how we are doing, and by the way, tuck a little gift in the envelope for us. (direct quote)
Or if you can give, we'll send you? Or how about buying this set of CD's on our entire series on sexual relationships. (direct quote)
Four Pastors later (I cannot believe I hung on that long) I pulled the plug on those guys. Charles Stanley was just doing a feel gooder (intended mispelling) message. The audience looked like they need to feel gooder all bored and looking like they had just got baptized in lemon juice. Joel Olsteen, another feel gooder positive thinking sermon in a mass filled stadium. Forgive me for being disappointed.
What will all those people discover when Jesus asks us what we did to fulfill His Mission of making disciples who make disciples.What if He asks us to present Him with the disciples we reached for Him? What will we do if He shows us on the screen of life all the stuff we sought to get from church rather than being the Church that gives daily in sacrificial service to the world.
All I wanted to hear was a message from God about His mission in the world. Why can't I find it? When will we tell our people why Jesus came and what we are supposed to continue until He returns?
Answer this one for me: Did anyone hear their pastor preach a word of God message on our responsibility to make disciples who make disciples at church today?
posted by Bob Carder @ 4:05 PM
19 comments
19 Comments:
Oh Bob - if we want to build the kingdom then money has to be a focus. The old saying is the Gospel is free but someone has to put in the plumbing. Every building fund I have ever seen has a catchy slogan that says something about how people will be impacted for God by this building. Even now I am being asked if I want to put True Vine on radio here in St. Louis.
The other thing about the feel good message is this. Don't people come to church to feel better? Isn't that what the gospel of relevance is all about? Meeting people's felt needs?
So let me set this straight. We need evangelistic "buildings" that can draw people to themselves and make them feel better about their lives so when they leave they can drop some money in the box and feel like they have been helped or have helped others. By this we can build a sense of dependency on the building and the message inside so they continue to show up each week and give. The mass media helps us to deliver this offer to more people so they too can be impacted by the feel good message and encouraged to give more to reach more. In this entire process some will be offered Christ's sacrifice in a non-threatening way. Many good things will be offered to the attendees in order to improve the quality of their life. I think I have this understood and it sounds like almost every church I have ever been to.
Have I missed anything?
It's still sick and sad to me. Let's CAN the believers felt needs or the church member of another churches felt needs. If we don't like the menu we find another buffet to indulge our selfishness. What about the needs of those who are lost for eternity? Are you one of those 'who cares'? (speaking to the world here).
When will we even begin to care.
Terry what you speak of never even comes close to fulfilling the mission of continuing our Lord's redemptive work and kingdom expansion.
While they are having their needs met the needs of the lost, hurting, hungry and thirsty go by unnoticed.
That is not the way Jesus IS!
Bob and Terry: I'm disputing that the church needs to be about Jesus' mission of reaching the lost. But I do want to challenge you Bob not to throw out the baby with the bathwater, so to speak.
Yes, the needs of those lost and going to hell without Christ should trump the "felt needs" of those who are saved. BUT, I don't think we want to "CAN" as you say, the felt needs of the believers.
Don't believe Jesus would ask for that, either. As I've said, many times, I'm no theologian, not even a very good Christian (but thankfully Christ loves me anyway), BUT part of what the early church did, I believe, was meeting the believers felt needs. Am I right? They all met together and held all things in common?
In fact, not meeting the felt needs of the community of believers, and of course lying about is, is what caused the death of the that guy and his wife who sold property but kept some of the profits for themselves. (Man I'm awful at names ... ).
So I think it IS part of the church's mission to meet the felt needs of the believers -- but not at the expense of, or in place of, sharing Christ with the lost.
Clearly we have moved too far into this "felt needs" arena, and also clearly, our "felt needs" today are much different than those of the early church community, but I think the principle can still apply.
True Christians do both. Share the Gospel and meet the needs of the Body.
I would add that we cannot turn our backs on the "felt needs" of the lost because their lostness manifests itself in the needs that they feel.
Nearly every great Jesus movement in histroy began among those with tremendous felt needs...the poor.
Read through the gospels and pay attention to those whom Jesus approached with the most tender care and compassion. They were poor. They were sick. They were blind. They were lame. They were social outcasts. Every one of them was in acute need and Jesus met them in that place. And nearly every one of those who followed Jesus across the countryside and became disciples did so because he tenderly met them at their place of need.
I think James warned us against ignoring the very real, felt needs of those around us. To do so is to abandon the very heart of Christ himself.
Shame on us if we try to get people to become disciples of Christ yet ignore the brokenness of their current state!
Okay...guess I should read all the comments before posting my own. I see now you're talking about the felt needs of believers, not the lost.
However, I am with Mike. Discipleship is a life-long journey with a lot of crisis points between new-birth to eternity. A healthy community (with our without buildings) will stand with one another in those moments of intense felt need and walk with them into wholeness.
There is a tension between caring for our brothers and sisters (remember the early Christians sold lands and homes to meet the felt needs of one another) and stifling the mission with self-absorbed naval-gazing.
CX to be previous post. The first sentence should read: "I'm NOT disputing ..." and then on with the rest.
OOps. I'm red-faced. An error.
Well, I'm thrilled someone rose from the depths of blogland. I should first say I agree with you. Then I'll tell you why I spoke in extremes. But meeting the felt needs of the church attenders has largely replaced those of meeting the felt needs of the lost and dying without Jesus. Our self focus on Sunday morning has replaced our
focus on the world.
Maybe we should dump our self serving inward focus on our perceived felt needs in order to have the wake up call to see the needs in the world. In other words what will it take to put the world ahead of ourselves. That's what Jesus did. He didn't spend his time burping and babying people. He saw the lost and brought them into faith in God and individuals in the family met the real, not the felt needs.
I could argue a case that reaching out to the needs of lost is more in line with the teaching of Jesus than is our staying in our holy huddles of care and nurturing of those who attend church.
We have created a wide gap that separates those who go to church and those outside of the kingdom. That gap has been largely due to our selfish focus on having our felt needs met. Then we get new people and teach them our own self centered ways. We go to church to have our own needs met rather than learn how to meet the needs of others. We speak of those on the outside but few ever attempt to follow through with it. Rather we say we believe it but never put what we say we believe into practice.
By the way, care and nurture of the already reached should be a natural function of the church as the body of Christ. But it has largely become a let's go to church on Sunday to get my,my,my,and my weekly fix of feel goodisms (my new word). Webster missed this one.
There is a difference between the genuine needs and the perceived needs and wishes of those desiring care.
If you look at the church benevolence budgets you will see what I mean. It's the smallest part of the church budget and it is mostly only for those in the church family. I think I just proved my case.
True Vine family had God bring a family in dire straights to us and by all church rules and policies I've seen in my ministry, we should have never helped them. But because we are focusing on the world and because God told us to help them we had only a few days before the deadline to find a way. God spoke individually to different ones and in the end the exact amount of $1,200 was raised in above tithe gifts. Now we are using the giftedness of the body to get them on track and out of the cycle of defeat.
When you flip upside down many things we in the church practice we soon discover that the flipped side is the correct way of doing things.
Put that in your pipe and smoke if, if you have a pipe.
Wow – I make one short sarcastic comment and there’s blood in the water. Most of my comment was directed at Bob because we had just discussed this topic. I am not surprised that the felt needs is what is being defended. What are your opinions on the other issues mentioned here?
Felt needs – Did Jesus ever deal with these in a sermon series? Did he ever use pop psychology or the latest secular methodism? Did Jesus sell Scrolls of His teachings to help support the ministry? Did Jesus ever run one building campaign besides the one where He ripped the veil and broke the altar? I am not saying that all of these things are always wrong but if we spend our time doing things Jesus never did and then don’t do the things He commanded us to do, aren’t we as guilty as the Pharisees of His day?
Come on guys – the power of positive thinking is not equal with Christ’s power to heal!
Can you at least comment on these other things?
How about answering the question in the middle of the post – “What if He asks us to present Him with the disciples we reached for Him?”
Now let’s raise the bar a little for you teachers out there. What if he asks this of your students and holds you accountable for their answer?
I'm about to post something on my blog that will probably make your britches burn. Hopefully I won't be excommunicated from Bobertland.
I've been coming under some conviction lately so I'm gonna write about it.
Sorry Bill - when it comes to this topic I wear my asbestos underwear.
It sounds like you may have resolved to really get to work.
Yep. I've been patiently (sometimes inpatiently) letting God shape me and waiting for His release. That release seems to near.
I don't think any of us are disagreeing on anything. At least I know I'm not disagreeing. As my post on this showed, especially when read as I intended to write it (se my CX post, still red-faced).
Bill, I thought you were going to write something that would burn britches, maybe mine as well.
Bill what do you mean by going to work? I thought that is what you've been doing.
I think you missed the intent of this post. But as you know I love it when someone tries to burn my britches right off me.
I'm all smiles right now. This motivates me to stay the course in hopes of enlisting an army of those around the world who are committed to the mandate of making disciples who make disciples.
So I'm not defending the sinful practices of the church in America. I'm not condemning believers either. But I remain a truth teller and I speak out on why it is sinful not to make disciples who make disciples.
They hated the prophets and they hated Jesus when He spoke truth. Many leaders have been hated for taking a stand and drawing a line in the sand.
I'm not laying it down, I'm pressing for some in the family of God to join with me and others who are committed to the Great Commission in both belief and action and not just belief as is commonplace in the American church.
It is a sin not to make disciples who make disciples who make disciples. I am like Paul, the chief of all sinners. Now that I know it is a sin for me not to obey the Great Commission I am doing what I can to be obedient in this area. I long for an army to join with me in a movement that cannot be stopped once it is engaged.
Mike, are you comfortable? Just wondering.
Satan longs for a few good men to do nothing. He celebrates victory when the masses do nothing to advance the Great Commission of God.
I'll beat this drum until old drummer wears out and dies. Here lies Bob Carder, the drummer who drummed himself to death for Jesus.
Am I comfortable? No. I always ache when I get up in the morning. One of the consequences of getting older, I guess. That and being crotchety and grumpy and irrascible (look it up...) -- like other old guys I know.
Maybe a cup of java will help...wanna join me for some?
You and me and coffee ... now that would be comfortable.
Bob, Mike, Bill...coffee...Nashville....yes, that sounds quite nice. :-)
I am quite offended that I have not been included in the Nashville - Coffee invitation. You should all stop talking about it and show your desire for a meeting and coffee through the power of God working quietly through you.
hee hee hee
Anonymous is Mike E, you rascal! Peacemaker one minute and He He-ing the next.
Mike E. I'll bring Terry along when we meet. Bill needs to meet Him and get to know Him. Bottom line, he'll like Him and want to join in ministry with him. A true man of God and integrity that surpasses mine.
yeah that was me, and I didn't even realize I did it anonymously until just now reading through. I never post anonymously on purpose. But I would LOVE to have Terry come along.
I just loved Terry's comment ... made me giggle.
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