I still have a glimmering of hope
I still have hope although it is a glimmering of hope that the American Church will release people to become Missionaries in their communities in "America".
If only the church would release all of their people out into the world and if only they would become obedient to move out of comfort in order to live out their gifts and passions to fulfil the Great Commission rather than expecting them to give all they have to the designated ministries of the church.
If only the control of the church would become celebrated freedom to serve the mission of Christ as mandated for all of us.
If only we would release the church to spend more time in outside missionary ministry that giving what little energy left to serve in the local church.
If only the church leadership would stop programming inside and release people to follow God's program outside.
If only and instead of having our people follow our own established mission and vision for our local church we would release all believers fulfill the already established mission of God for us.
If only we would give up the "show" on Sunday and be present in our communities.
If only we would quit spending all of our time planning for Sunday and other programs we would let God lead us out into the world and into lives everyday.
If only what little time we have left after work and....? we would use those energies to fulfill the Great Commission with supremacy in our world.
If only we would quit inviting people to church as the main thing and make inviting people to Jesus through our relationships the main thing.
If only we would disciple people to Jesus who would immediately disciple their friends to Jesus themselves instead of just haphazardly discipling people to be good church members who lead others to be good church members.
If only we were all Great Commission purposed missionaries- we would see America changed because Americans are hungry for Jesus despite our arguments that they are not. Instead of being excited about what happened at church we would be bursting with excitement about Jesus. When we are excited about Jesus -- Jesus oozes out of us.
posted by Bob Carder @ 1:42 PM
9 comments
9 Comments:
Just as some people are in love with being in love, so it is with Christians who have not yet become followers of Jesus Christ.
How do you know when this occurs? When it costs you to follow Jesus and you do it anyway.
Two thoughts: The church does not have to "release" anyone. We are all independent agents and make decisions for ourselves. Because humans work better this way, I would like the church to (and Bob will gag here) give some instruction in how to impact our neighbors for Christ. We feel better if we have a "how to" manual. It's the way we're wired. And, yes, the Spirit will lead if we let Him, but not all of us are as "in tune" with being led spiritually.
Second, this graf is the key:
(the Planter wrote it)
"If only we would quit inviting people to church as the main thing and make inviting people to Jesus through our relationships the main thing."
Mike said: Two thoughts: The church does not have to "release" anyone. We are all independent agents and make decisions for ourselves.
Bob says: Who do you know who does this? Which church are you familiar with who doesn't expect members to exclusively support the ministries of the church? Tell your pastor you are going to stop serving the members of the church for a season so you can serve your neighbors. (No more choir, board meetings, Christmas program practices, drama etc etc.) Now what do you think will happen? Tell em you cannot give any extra because you need the money for your neighbors each month? Now what do you think will happen?
Mike said: Because humans work better this way, I would like the church to (and Bob will gag here) give some instruction in how to impact our neighbors for Christ. We feel better if we have a "how to" manual. It's the way we're wired. And, yes, the Spirit will lead if we let Him, but not all of us are as "in tune" with being led spiritually.
Bob says, I've done that and I always got the same results. Until we own the purposes of the Great Commission as a mandate from God for all Christ followers all the sermons and training classes in the world will fall by the wayside.
To the world: You do not need another class or program. If you will obey -God will show you how. Do you know how to relate to those in the church? Are they people? Do you love them? Do you spend time with them? Are you actively concerned about them? You know how to do that and you never had a class to show you how. Right?
Now you know what you need to do? Do what you do so well in the church by taking it outside in the world. AHAH!
People do not (often) think for themselves and they (almost always) accept the ministries they are handed from the top down. Ministries outside of those adopted (or mandated)by leadership are not blessed or encouraged in most places. Do it and beware of the consequences. I wonder why no one I know has rocked that boat. Humm!
BF: Also adds to this discussion in a thought provoking and convicting way.
Mike you nailed it on our discussion as to why the church chooses to do Christmas instead of being Christmas in the world. Sure wish we could do both -but few do both.
Any good writer (Mike E) puts it on the table even at risk of becoming vulnerable (you know how I'll come back as you have seen before). You are very courageous! I love having such an honest friend.
The Planter wrote:
Bob says, I've done that (given instruction in how to live evangelically, for lack of a better word) and I always got the same results. Until we own the purposes of the Great Commission as a mandate from God for all Christ followers all the sermons and training classes in the world will fall by the wayside.
Mike says: You have not done that since your "enlightenment" (written with no sarcasm at all). Or have you? Unfortunately, all I see of you these days is your blog and phone calls.
This is part of what frequently troubles me about what you write. You expect people to just start doing something new because you say so. To cast aside what we've been taught to do for years (centuries, collectively). And if we find it difficult, or confusing, or have questions about the how (because that's how we're wired, we want to be taught "how to") you become a Nike spokesman.
I know, it's not you who's saying so, it's God. But I also know that I have done what you suggest, repeatedly, and God has not sent me anyone to disciple. Therefore that leaves me with three options:
1. God is not calling me to this discipleship ministry. (You claim this is not a possibility, it is expected of every Christian.)
2. I am not "seeing" the people God is sending my way. (But I have always thouht myself more sensitive to the Spirit than that.)
3. I am not a Christian. (The Spirit of God within me testifies against this.)
Second, you wrote:
Bob says: Who do you know who does this? Which church are you familiar with who doesn't expect members to exclusively support the ministries of the church? Tell your pastor you are going to stop serving the members of the church for a season so you can serve your neighbors. (No more choir, board meetings, Christmas program practices, drama etc etc.) Now what do you think will happen? Tell em you cannot give any extra because you need the money for your neighbors each month? Now what do you think will happen?
Mike writes: I do not give my extra to my church exclusively. I support several ministries outside of the scope of my church, but I do give my tithe and some of my offerings to my church because that is required and because I love doing so. Nothing has "happened" because of this, other than more people were reached, helped, whatever. I even did this while you were my pastor, and nothing "happened."
I have said "no" to many ministries I loved doing because God was calling me away from them -- and again, nothing "happened" when I told church leadership I was setting down this responsibility.
I'm trying to understand, but it's only getting more confusing.
Mike said: You have not done that since your "enlightenment" (written with no sarcasm at all). Or have you? Unfortunately, all I see of you these days is your blog and phone calls.
Bob says: YES! Camp meeting with one pastor getting ticked at me.
As far as my enlightenment - I have decided that I will spend the rest of my life on fulfilling the purposes of the Great Commission as the main thing with other important commands flowing out of that.
We do offer training on what it means to live Great Commissional and how to be organic in disciple-making and we make sure they understand and know what Jesus taught. We do not spend alott of time on those who are unteachable and refusing to get out of the box or old wineskin. We do not spend time showing people how to make disciples who make disciples if they don't believe it is important. We do spend time showing people how important it is to live Great Commissionally.
Mike writes: I do not give my extra to my church exclusively. I support several ministries outside of the scope of my church, but I do give my tithe and some of my offerings to my church because that is required and because I love doing so. Nothing has "happened" because of this, other than more people were reached, helped, whatever. I even did this while you were my pastor, and nothing "happened."
Bob says, This is a hard one for you because in your setting only a couple people know who gives what and the pastor does not know this
Mike said: I have said "no" to many ministries I loved doing because God was calling me away from them -- and again, nothing "happened" when I told church leadership I was setting down this responsibility.
Bob says: Mike, did you sit down on ministries in the church or out and did you ever sit down on all of your inside the church ministries to go exclusively outside with the approval and blessing of the leadership?
Don't be confused. But try starting a ministry as a ministry of the church outside of the church without the church approving it. And then ask people to give for this ministry. Just announce to the pastor you are starting a new ministry outside and you now have to stop doing everything in the church and you are recruiting others in the church to help you with your new ministry "outside".
Tell the church leaders that you are giving all of your tithe to the Samaritans purse and nothing to the building or budget and see what heppens.
Better yet - send all of your tithe to the smallest more needy church in town and tell your pastor and board you are doing that. They will treat you differently. Be sure to tell Gus you are doing this.
Bob wrote:
But try starting a ministry as a ministry of the church outside of the church without the church approving it. And then ask people to give for this ministry. Just announce to the pastor you are starting a new ministry outside and you now have to stop doing everything in the church and you are recruiting others in the church to help you with your new ministry "outside".
Tell the church leaders that you are giving all of your tithe to the Samaritans purse and nothing to the building or budget and see what heppens.
Better yet - send all of your tithe to the smallest more needy church in town and tell your pastor and board you are doing that. They will treat you differently.
Mike asks:
Why on earth would I do this? Why would I sow such seeds of discord? I do not understand the point you're trying to make.
The point: You said the church doesn't have to release anyone.
If the body of Christ is truly in unity (which they are not) why would Jesus care how and where and what ministry you give to?
The point: If being free to follow God outside of the control of the church and limits to the ministries you engage or want to engage is met with control -something is wrong. Must we only serve in those ministries that are pre-designated and approved ministries? What if God calls you to something outside of those structures while representing your church? So what if following God is perceived by the controllers as sowing seeds of seeds of discord? If it ever becomes that - YOU ARE DEFINITELY IN THE WRONG PLACE.
The point is: If God asked you to do anything close to what I have suggested (rather extreme at times) you cannot do it without breaking church rules and (maybe) causing discord.
Jesus often sowed seeds of discord and that's the part I love because He kicked the religious in their butts.
I'm praying God will call you to do something that forces you to break the rules in order for you to be obedient to Him. Of course you have to be listening to Him in this matter. Get ready for some out of the box fun!
I still say the church doesn't have to release anyone. If God calls me, it doesn't matter what the church says. I go.
Perhaps I am being naive (it wouldn't be the first time), but that seems like a "duh" decision to me.
Mike said: I still say the church doesn't have to release anyone. If God calls me, it doesn't matter what the church says. I go.
Perhaps I am being naive (it wouldn't be the first time), but that seems like a "duh" decision to me.
Bob says, As is often the case -"You are right." The church doesn't have to release but they often claim that right.
Example: I asked the pastor who was leading a church planters BootCamp this fall the following question. Why not release people to serve in a ministry outside the church and/or wherever God is leading them and without your permission? He responded - "They cannot just run around doing whatever and we cannot release them to serve outside the church because they might mis-represent our church. As long as they are in our church the ministries they serve in must be approved. We determine the ministries that fulfill our purposes and anything that does not support our mission we don't allow."
Mike, I wouldn't call it naive. But the example I just presented is a widespread attitude of control among senior church leadership. They have to fulfill the narrow scope of ministry as they have determined rather than a full release of church members to be free or invited or released
to serve more outside than inside as God leads.
What I presented has ramifications of phenominal proportion and squelching impact on a fluid missional movement led by the Holy Spirit.
Let's see what others think in my next post.
It is rampant in the church in America and it is all about man-control versus Holy Spirit control.
It's not your fault you have not seen it, but if you will keep listening and watching -you will see it and it will sicken you.
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