Pagan Christianity -rebuttal #1
In "Pagan Christianity" there are severe flaws that need to be addressed. I'll just take them one or two at a time in numerous blog posts.
1. The book, written by Viola/Barna, I noted early on an obvious bias for the house church movement. I love to read the work of those who lay out the facts, but I do not appreciate the bias and misrepresentations of New Testament House Churches.
In the defining descriptions of the New Testament Church Viola seems to identify his house church experience with that of the New Testament Church. But there remains an obvious and clear difference between the two. The New Testament Church gathered in obedience to the Great Commission and Christian community grew out of that. The early church GATHERED TO GO into the world and advanced/engaged the mission of Jesus left behind for them to fulfill. In Viola's description of and perceptions of the early church and his house church involvement the priority is community much like what I see all over America in many forms/models. While many house churches GO TO GATHER as the main thing, a shift is needed and THEY MUST GATHER TO GO so that they engage mission Jesus gave them/us with all power and authority as the risen Christ.
New Testament House Churches were "obedient first" to fulfill the commands of Christ to Go and and make disciples and when they did they experienced true Christian community of the likes few of us have ever experienced...the heart of God.
In Viola's description we see obedience in community but not obedience to all the commands of Christ, namely the Great Commission, which is something He downplays and discredits as something that is not for all believers. MORE on that later. This will be a steamy post - LATER!
While I am for House Churches and see their wonderful value in reaching the lost and beginning disciple driven movements, they fall far short if they do not Gather to Go. If the GO TO GATHER they are just mere imitations of that which they have left behind in their past expressions of going to Church. If they GO TO GATHER (community)as their priority they are no different and not more effective than what they left. If they GATHER TO GO OUT in Great Commission obedience they become a New Testament movement that will lead to exponential disciple making movements rising out from among them. Only then will we see New Testament resemblance and the true community they long for.
Viola/Barna keep missing the most important result of living in obedience to all the commands of Christ. All Christ followers are responsible to make disciples who make disciples who...
Of course I am guilty of writing with a bias in this rebuttal. That bias is a just engagement of the Scriptural mandate for all Christ followers to reproduce disciples themselves. Viola discredits this command in my context here, and that makes his house church movement nothing more than a copy of the Church where in many places disciples do not/are not making disciples who... A copy is a copy and can be a copy in different expressions.
I love the House Church movement - those who are part of the Body of Christ. I am disappointed that they often fail to realize how beautifully they are poised to engage disciple driven movements as their purpose of making disciples at all costs. When this happens true community like that of which many have never experienced will be enjoyed.
I often wonder why those who claim to obey refuse to really obey. In the Great Commission Jesus said, "and teach them to obey all that I have commanded you." And He said that after the greatest CO-Mission command ever given from His lips. This command covers the whole of His life and desire for us to "be fruitful and multiply."
posted by Bob Carder @ 9:03 AM
7 comments
7 Comments:
Hello Bob, I read the book a few weeks ago now, and I enjoyed the history of everything, but I felt like Viola is pushing his way as "the way".
I did not catch in the book, what you are saying here... that his style of house church was inward focused like the local church is today.
I really like your terminology of go to gather & gather to go!
I was not aware that Viola/Barna were suggesting we go to gather. I'm curious where you see that in the book. After reading Revolution by Barna, I sense a man who is looking at the "christians" in our churches, and is looking for a way to change the fact that they look the same if not worse than the pagan world around them. I'm guessing he is involved in the house church movement.
More of what we already have is the last thing we need. We need our churches to be born again.
So here's another question... Why do you think there is a camp of christians that feel the command to go and make disciples isn't for everyone? What is their reasoning, and how do they justify it? I can't figure it out.
I posted the question in another discussion board, "can you be a disciple if you have never made a disciple". Most all say yes, and one of the guys, writes that it's not good to keep tabs on how many disciples you make... and that it's the churches responsibility as a body to make disciples, not the individuals.
After just going thru Keystone week one, two weeks ago, I'm trying to figure out why there are two camps of christians out there, and I'm trying to find some answers.
As I was reading your blog, and you said "viola discredits this command" I thought you might be referring to the part in the book where he debates the word "go" in the great commission. Is this a common thought in the church today? I checked out the greek poreuomai, and the word can be translated "to come, go, travel". It doesn't match up to what Viola is saying.
Any help or thoughts would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Casey Turner
Casey, Anything that does not focus entirely on the Great Commission is self centered consumerism.
I agree that Viola pushes his own way. Great observation on your part.
You must agree that in order to make a disciple you must first be a disciple and then make disciples. Keystone does teach that all should be in a discipling relationship with others. In that we have found that when someone disciples us and we in turn disciple another that leads to a movement a disciples making disciples. We make it far too difficult. True discipleship is life on life.
Speaking of two camps, one obeys the Great Commission to make disciples who make disciples who...and the other who discredits the validity of the Great Commission mandate for all.
You are right, Viola misinterprets the greek when Jesus said, As you are going, make disciples...
We must personally own the Great Commission because Jesus summed up His earthly ministry by rising from the dead as King of Kings and Lord or Lords, with all authority as God to remind us of His purpose for coming and our purpose for living, to make disciples who also make disciples who...
Two types of Christians...one who obeys and the other who does not. The reason, they were not taught to personally obey the Great Commission mandate as you and I. We must help others see how important it is for us to be fruitful and multiply souls as was and is the reason Jesus came, died and was resurrected. He paid the price now we must engage the movement the price paid.
Casey, thanks for engaging in this discussion. You are among the brave ones -the very few brave one's.
Thanks for the thoughts Bob.
I'm interested to see what other thoughts you had after reading pegan christianity...
I'll try and stay in the discussion.
I heard about you from a phone conversation with Terry about 6 months ago. Then again at Keystone I heard your name.
I'm trying to seek Gods will in our area, and praying that God will show me where to start.
Keep up the great work :)
Casey
there's a great interview on the book here
http://www.subversiveinfluence.com/wordpress/?p=1583
Tom
Hey Bob! Haven't read, or heard of, the book, but interesting reading here!
Are you sure about "Anything that does not focus entirely on the Great Commission is self centered consumerism?" How about "we need to focus on the Great Commission through the lens of biblical context." I know you probably mean that, not lifting the GC out only ...
And how about "Keystone does teach ...?" Could we rather say, the Bible teaches ...? Be careful of narrowing our focus too much on Keystone and Discipleship!
I can plug this wholeheartedly: "Discipleship is life on life!" And yes, we do make it too difficult sometimes!
TIM BAUER
Bob - I submit the "Go to Gather" vs. "Gather to Go" polarity is a false crisis. Viola's book (Pagan Christianity) may not emphasize "going" enough for you - I didn't read it with that filter on so I'm not really sure how much going there is/isn't - but it's not an anti-"go" book. If you read Re-Imagining Church - Viola's next book and the self-described "constructive" pair to the "deconstructive" first volume, you'll see plenty of emphasis on the "apostolic" (sending, going) activity of the early and house church movement.
I might add that Christianity has long misinterpreted the "great commission" passage of Matthew 28:18-20 and that misinterpretation has turned on a simple verb tense in the Greek. The passage does not read, "Go into all the world". Rather, it reads, "As you are going into all the world." The former "punctilear" verb tense (vs. the "linear" verb tense actually used) has fostered an unnatural and compartmentalized approach to "missions." My understanding of this passage's intent is that while we are going through our daily routines (office work, raising children, coaching little league sports, running for office, etc.) we are to be influencing people to become followers of Christ ("making disciples"). Therefore, even the act of gathering together is a very literal fulfillment of the "as you are going" command.
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