Tuesday, September 30, 2008

My friend San speaks...

About our decision to move forward with Disciple Driven Church,
San says, "Bob, Congratulations! It was time for you to lead this ministry without strings attached.


The Planter: Thanks San for undying support.

How sad...

I discovered today that there is more concern about denominational growth/retention than about the kingdom.

I'm sad and even more sad that the kingdom comes in second here.

Please don't ask me to prove it even though I can.

Disciple Driven Church...

We are now officially part of the Disciple Driven Church, a disciple making movement that officially reaches across America for Christ. We are no longer affiliated with the Missionary Church and the Midwest District.

Becoming an official Church movement with tax deductible status was no small task. We felt that in order to better serve the mission of making disciples who make disciples we needed to be geographically unrestricted and structurally unhindered. While we will always love the Missionary Church for birthing us, this step has become necessary to move forward across America in order to birth new movements of Holy Spirit led disciple making.

We are excited about what God is doing and will do in raising up exponential disciple making movements across America.

The Disciple Driven Church....

The Disciple Driven Church is:

Holy Spirit led,
geographically unrestricted,
structurally unhindered,
Holy Spirit empowered,
where all Christ followers,
personally make disciples,
who make disciples,
who themselves make disciples!

Sunday, September 28, 2008

You can't always...

You can't always do what God is calling you to do while remaining in the old wine skin.

The Holy Spirit still breaths new wine into new skins. History reveals this truth over and over again.

God is the great God of creativity. Just look around at people with their gifts, at trees and her leafs, at flowers of all color, just to name a few.

Holy Spirit work through the Body of Christ is expressed beautifully in the redemptive work He calls us all into. The Holy Spirit still breaths life into new wine skins. And the new wine needs the new skin to carry her. Only a creative God could do this over and over again. He has to do this when we humans stall out His redemptive plan.

Sometimes you gotta be called out of the old and into the new for His redemptive work to continue at the level He leads. We don't get to make new wine skins. The Holy Spirit does that for us. He empowers the work, calls us into it and then provides the wine skins to care for it.

Saturday, September 27, 2008


Praise God for the 40,000+ hits on this site in less than two years.

A new ideology is needed in the American Church

Bill Hull speaks to this in The Disciple Making Pastor, "The disciple making pastor is a biblical ideologue. The word ideology was first used during the French Revolution. It means 'revolution for structural change.; Disciple making at the heart of the local church is revolutionary ideology calling for fundamental change within the church. While he makes no plans to storm the Bastille, the pastor does call into question the structures and priorities of the modern church.

The ideology is simple, obvious, and treacherous. The Orwell statement used earlier tells us why, We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men.' The church has stumbled so far from the prescribed purpose and methods that people consider restating prescribed purpose and methods that people consider the obvious revolutionary ideology. Like Christ calling the religious establishment to live their faith , the disciple making pastor asks the church to return to her first calling."

We need a revolutionary ideology to bring us back to the center of God's heart and purpose. What say you? Let's not get too defensive here.

For me...

While I love tradition I fight like mad with all my heart the sin of traditionalism. You must understand the difference between good tradition and traditionalism. The American Church is full of the sin of traditionalism and many do not or refuse to see or admit it. Tradition may guide us but traditionalism controls us. That control or limitation for God is sin in her ripest form. Traditionalism puts God in a box and then calls that good.

Jesus came to set us free so that we could be free indeed to obey Him at whatever cost.

And, no cost is too high to experience freedom in Christ.

Are you free? You gotta step into the inner court to experience this freedom.

Anyone out there experiencing this freedom? What's it like for you?

T.S. Elliot writes,

As found in The Disciple Making Pastor, T.S. Eliot, the poet writes, "I had the meaning but missed the experience."

Bill Hull continues, "Being in love with God is like being swept off your feet by a great symphony or standing before a painting like Rembrandt's Return of the Prodigal Son. It is an experience; it is to dwell in His presence, listen to His voice, and taste His goodness. Getting to know God this way takes some time and effort. It means opening the door on which Jesus knocks and inviting Him to have fellowship, It means putting yourself in a position to hear Him, to listen, to contemplate. It begins with our relationship with God. We read the Bible to submit to God, to know Him, to confess our sins, and to strengthen our hearts."

This intimacy with God reflects the heart of what we move our disciples into. I love being able to see this happen in America and in the hearts of the redeemed. When you meet these disciples you are pulled into the presence of Christ. This is truly what being a disciple is all about. We should be like magnets for Jesus.

Remember, what we use to draw them into is what we draw them to. We have only Jesus to offer. Our gatherings for worship are all about Jesus and His Holy Spirit's work. We have no service to attract we have only Jesus.

Like my friends in Haiti, when Jesus is all you have, Jesus is all you need. I love being in the Disciple Driven Church new wine skin. God is released to work when, where, and however in the world through the obedient Spirit led Body of Christ and even the others. I'm so blessed, today, not to mention free.

The Disciple Driven Church continues...

The Disciple Driven Church continues to move forward unrestricted geographically and structurally in order to make disciples who make disciple who are fully empowered by the Holy Spirit under His authority and power. While the wine skin may look differently the message is the same as that of Jesus. We have nothing to offer but Jesus and His power to set people free from the ravages of sin that binds and controls.

We are movement in the midst of God's Holy presence. While we do not discredit some traditions we also do not let traditionalism define or control what God wants to do.

Many will not be able to see how this wine skin can fit in established systems because often if not always it cannot. At least so it seems.

The fresh wind and fresh fire of God's burning Holy Spirit has been released in exponential work of God. We praise God for He is God alone.

Friday, September 26, 2008

While in New York

We continue to see the diversity of God's creation. And even in that diversity God is at work and Jesus is still the only answer of Hope for the world. The Word and plan for world redemption is just as relevant here as it is on my street in St. Louis metro.

All of creation knows there is a God. And truly - many are seeking Him.

New York is a friendly and warm place and when you get to know the people they are genuine and truly concerned. I sense that God is mightily at work here.

Bill Hull writes...

"Obedience to the Great Commission hinges on three things:
1) An intentional plan that defines and trains disciples.
2) A commitment to reproduction by training evangelism with accountability.
3) And, a commitment to multiplication by special training in order to produce disciple making leaders.

These are the bare bones and anything less is disobedience."

Bill Hull in "Disciple Making Pastor."

These things are defined and living in action through the Disciple Driven Church. God is birthing a movement of disciple multiplying leaders and Christ followers. Are you in? Or are you satisfied with anything less than the bare essentials? Be careful how you answer. Your answer will curse or bless you.

IF there is a tone for division...

If this blog is noted for a tone for division - then please show me where Scriptures are violated.

It cannot be done with regard to the love we have for making disciples who make disciples as the command for all of us. It cannot be done.

As you know, Truth always divides wheat and tares.

There is not room for division here in our intent and purpose. There is only great hope for obedience in the modern American Church.

Let American believers fall on our faces before God for not taking the Great Commission personally and with accountability for all to obey. We have hindered the work of the Holy Spirit.

I have done so (repented) and I invite you into the same camp.

Some thoughts I gleaned from Bill Hull as edited.

If structures hinder...

If structure hinders the free flowing work of the Holy Spirit empowered in a believers life - then the structures are traditionalism. Tradition in and of itself is not bad and is often good. But when it (traditionalism) controls the work of God then it becomes traditionalism sin. Many denominations have already fallen into traditionalism and are hindered in Holy Spirit led movements. There structures refuse to give way for out of the box works of God. The grip for power and control defines traditionalism.

Why do we defend traditionalism that controls out the work God wants to do? The answer is complicated. The result is sinful.

May God help us.

Why do we have conflict...?

Do we have conflict presently with new and old wineskins? Why you ask?

Disciple making - I mean personal disciple making for all believers is God's top priority. Because it is God's top priority is also Satan's top priority to fight. No work draws more trouble, division or resistance than mandating personal disciple making.

Disciple making is developing a culture that is open to personal engagement and strong accountability with regard to fulfilling the Great Commission of God.

It is not because we are engaged in a human battle. That which we engage is a spiritual one. Satan will turn brother against brother on this important reason for us to exist. The Church in America is disobedient to the personal Great Commission mandate and even those leading the Church are resisting this Truth. Why? We are deceived! Not by me! I am not the enemy. I am your friend. God is breathing life into a disciples making disciples movement in America. No price is too high for obedience.

the question

How do pastors lead Churches to make disciples who make disciples without polarizing their congregations?

Seminaries do not equip pastors to discover how to lead existing Churches into disciple making Churches without great conflict.

What think ye?

Wednesday, September 24, 2008

What's MISSING in The Wesleyan Quadrilateral's Search for Truth?

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Wesleyan Quadrilateral is a methodology for theological reflection that is credited to John Wesley, leader of the Methodist movement in the late 18th Century. The term itself was coined by 20th century American Methodist Albert C. Outler in his introduction to the 1964 collection John Wesley (ISBN 0-19-502810-4).

Upon examination of Wesley's work, Outler theorized that Wesley used four different sources in coming to theological conclusions. The four sources are:

* Scripture - the Holy Bible (Old and New Testaments)
* Tradition - the two millennia history of the Christian Church
* Reason - rational thinking and sensible interpretation
* Experience - a Christian's personal and communal journey in Christ

In practice, at least one of the Wesleyan denominations, The United Methodist Church, asserts that “Wesley believed that the living core of the Christian faith was revealed in Scripture, illumined by tradition, vivified in personal experience, and confirmed by reason. Scripture [however] is primary, revealing the Word of God ‘so far as it is necessary for our salvation.’” (The Book of Discipline of the United Methodist Church-2004, p. 77).

Wesley saw the Quadrilateral not merely as prescriptive of how one should form their theology, but also as descriptive of how almost anyone does form theology. As an astute observer of human behavior, and a pragmatist, Wesley's approach to the Quadrilateral was most certainly phenomenological, describing in a practical way how things actually work in actual human experience. Thus, when Wesley speaks of "Tradition", he does not merely refer to ancient Church Tradition and the writings of the great theologians and Church Fathers of days past, but also of the immediate and present theological influences which contribute to a person's understanding of God and of Christian theology. "Tradition" may include such influences as the beliefs, values, and instruction of one's family and upbringing. It may also include the various beliefs and values which one encounters and which have an effect on one's understanding of Scripture.

It must be understood, however, that for Wesley, Tradition, Reason, and Experience do not form additional "sources" for theological truth, for he believed that the Bible was the sole source of truth about God, but rather these form a matrix for interpreting the Bible. Therefore, while the Bible is the sole source of truth, Tradition forms a "lens" through which we view and interpret the Bible. But unlike the Bible, Tradition is not an infallible instrument, and it must be balanced and tested by Reason and Experience. Reason is the means by which we may evaluate and even challenge the assumptions of Tradition. Reason is the first means by which we may "trim our sails" and adjust interpretations of Scripture.

But for Wesley, the chief test of the "truth and nothing but the whole truth" of a particular interpretation of scripture is how it is seen in practical application in one's Experience. Always the pragmatist, Wesley believed that Experience formed the best evidence, after Scripture, for the truthfulness of a particular theological view. He believed Scriptural truths are to be primarily lived, rather than simply thought about or merely believed. Thus, how a particular interpretation of scripture is lived out is the best and most viable test of our theology.

Each of the "legs" of the Wesleyan Quadrilateral must be taken in balance, and none of the other three apart from scripture should be viewed as being of equal value or authority with scripture. None of these should be taken in isolation without the balancing effect of the others, and always Scripture should have the central place of authority.

The Planter: Remember the Quad is a test for theological truth and not a test for our practices with regard to tradition or is it? I see something huge missing here. Can anyone else see it. See if you can find the several things that box God in here.

I almost hate to post this on the blog because I am taking another blogging sabbatical until next Tuesday. So have at it, Phil, I'm doing this for you.

Tuesday, September 23, 2008


If you are using services and gatherings as your main vehicle to evangelize and make disciples -- It's a Cop Out.

We are commanded by God to teach and hold all believers accountable to make disciples who make disciples who are empowered by the Holy Spirit to fulfill His Great Commission.

Why don't we do this? Because we have a COP OUT!

It's up to us...

God's redemptive plan for reaching the world is up to us...

It must be a personal and deliberate act or actions of obedience. God's redemptive plan to reach the world is something every Christ follower must engage personally and deliberately.

It is not good enough that we have corporate services of evangelism and discipleship. God is calling all of us to personally and deliberately engage those who do not know Jesus. Inviting those who do not know Jesus to church does not take the place of personally and intentionally making disciples. Many have been misled to believe that inviting people to church ends that responsibility. This is false and to live in that camp is to live in disobedience to the Great Commission of God.

The tools we use....

The tools we use to do the Lord's work were never meant to be worshiped.

Instead of the tools serving us -- given enough time we will end up serving the tools. Given enough time we end up pouring most of our resources into the tools. The tools we often use end up eating up all of our time, energy and resources.

An old friend of mine once said, "The more you own the more you have to maintain."

Tools of ministry are not always the friends we think they are. Tools of ministry can actually hinder God's redemptive work in the world.

There really is only one choice...Obedience

There are plenty of people to take care of the old wine skin - called the American Church in her present form. So let's not use that as an excuse for not moving out into new Holy Spirit birthed wine skins.

I talk to pastors often who use this excuse for not stepping out in faith to be part of this new thing God is doing in America. They often feel great responsibility for the already reached. Listen, the already reached don't need our investments of time, energy and resources. They are in. What we are talking about is reaching those who are not in. Jesus will take care of His children and the already reached children can take care of themselves. God is calling out leaders to walk by faith and make disciples who make disciples in a new Holy Spirit filled and directed form.

Many leaders have been trained in this movement of God and still go back to living and serving in the old wine skin with the same old parameters. These leaders will be held to a higher standard. They have been taught to live in the spirit to lead people into Holy Spirit baptism, to make disciples who make disciples who make disciples. Living in the old wine skin after being introduced to the new wine skin work of the Holy Spirit will bring judgment. You don't get to choose once you've been introduced to this Truth and new Holy Spirit birthed work. It has to be the new wine skin. There is no other choice here.

I'm honored to bring this truthful reminder to you. You don't really have an option once you've had this truth revealed. To reject it is to bring judgment down from God. God is calling out a remnant to lead this Holy Spirit birthed work. Are you a Joshua?

Monday, September 22, 2008

It works!

The Biblical process for handling conflicts works.

I today spoke personally with Senor Blackwood and we ironed out our stuff. It seems we just passed each other. Even with disagreements we are still brothers in Christ. Isn't God great.

If in doubt take it personal. When you are in conflict, pick up the phone or pay a visit. That's what we did. That is the Biblical thing to do.

While we may not agree on how to make disciples, we are still brothers in the family of God. Senor Blackwood took the high road and I respect him for it.

Even if - we lose our jobs...

Even if we lose our jobs (as pastors) we must call all of our people to personally and intentionally make disciples who make disciples. To allow our people (in our church) to live in disobedience to the Great Commission will bring grave consequences.

It is not an option to downplay the supremacy of the Great Commission for all of us personally and intentionally. Corporate evangelism and disciple making do not replace personal evangelism and deliberate disciple making. No one gets a pass on this Great Commission mandate for all believers.

There is no room for compromise nor for ignorance in this matter. Let's get back to the business of taking Jesus seriously when He rose from the dead and gave us the command. Disobedience is not an option. Showing believers how do make disciples is.

Monday morning questions?

Can God birth a Holy Spirit released work of Disciples Making Disciples who all make disciples while living in the Spirit? Can the Church in America grow exponentially? Can miracles become commonplace? Can we have another Pentecost, this time in America?

Sunday, September 21, 2008

What is Church?

Robert Fitts, "Two or three gathered in Christ name."

Two missionaries sharing the Good News in an igloo in Greenland. The Church.

Two or three believers sharing over a meal. The Church.

Alan Creech, "We need to understand and do church differently because there is deep lack of real transformation going on in the body of Christ."

Reggie McNeal says, "A growing number of people are leaving the institutional church for a new reason. They are not leaving because they have lost faith, they are leaving the church to preserve their faith."

Sojourner writes, "Today, we usually see structure define what the church is. In this context, there is not room for the full and rich diversity of the movement of the Spirit through God's people... Could this be the reason that we are not seeing the glory of the Lord cover our neighborhoods and nations?"

Sojourner further states, "Church as we know it has become a box to live within, not a movement to participate in."

Any other thoughts on What is Church before we close out. Last call.

I LOVE THE CHURCH - The Body of Christ

I like some of you have been blessed to grow up in a fine American Church. My Church was the exception, Pastor Downey was my Pastor. He led us well. In the Church I discovered Jesus and His power, I witnessed Truth and I saw the Holy Spirit unleashed in all of His power. I have been blessed.

We had no entertaining elements, we just came for Jesus.

We had no Hype, Jesus was all we needed.

We went out into the world to lead people to Jesus. I was there, I went every week to lead people to Jesus. We never forgot this was our charge.

Ours was the first church bus entering the other side of the tracks where black people lived. I lived in a suburb of Detroit where prejudice was common, even in the Church. I stood in homes, I picked up the African American children, I loved them and so did the rest of the family.

Our music was good but it was no Hollywood experience and that was just fine.

We came together as the Body of Christ to hear from Jesus and to experience all that the Holy Spirit was willing to give out. And He spared nothing in the pouring. I witnessed a God that is alive and still doing miracles.

I love the Church - the Body of Christ - I hate what we have done to her over recent modern years. I say "we" because I am part of the "we".


Rev and Mrs Downey made my life and belief that God is real - very possible. Thank you Jesus for your Church the Body receptive to You, ALWAYS!

As I said, I love the Church, but I also hate what we have done to her in modernity.


I have recently had some with agendas visiting and posting accusations.

In both cases the senior pastors have issues. Sorry you had to endure it.

I think I have them pinned down at least for now.

Not only...

Not only can you make disciples who make disciples without
Better Programs
Bigger budgets

You can make disciples who make disciples who lead to God birthed Holy Spirit led disciple multiplying movements WITHOUT the office of Pastor. That's right. We have already proven that.

When the Church - The Body of Christ is fully functioning in all of the gifts including Ephesians 4, we have the Apostle, Prophet, Teacher, Evangelist and Pastor all functioning cooperatively and as needed so all the needs of the Body of Christ are met.

In pure Holy Spirit led Disciple making movements the office of the pastor is not needed because the Holy Spirit gifts that roll as well as all the others. When the Body of Christ discovers this it is powerful and full of God praise.

In our Disciple Driven Church we are well cared for by the Pastor gifted ones.

So we have no Pastor control because that's not what a pastor gifted one does.

A threat???

Anonymous posted these comments while I was taking a blog sabbatical.

Any said: "Bob as a member of the midwest district I would like to send you warning... There are things in motion that do not bode well for you and your movement.

Most if not all of your support comes from churches or people IN churches and you have bitten the hand that feeds you. I know personally of people that support you that have read your blog and the comments on it, over the last couple of days and I would like to excercise a word of caution to you. There have been MANY valid questions have been brought up that you have avoided. Furthermore neither you or anyone that you have discipled have used scripture to defend any of your statements. Instead of answering senor, phil, chris, and several others comments you lash out at them and attack them. Bob, this concerns me. I have choosen to remain anonymous because i have said more than i should have. I hope you can respect a peer trying to lend you a hand though.

The Planter: Hummmm Interesting. This is what always happens when the church-the machine is challenged to conform. She gets defensive and comes up fighting with both gloves on.

I'm not moved by these idle threats. If a donor cannot support the Holy Spirit Disciple Driven movement that's fine. I never make people keep their commitments to me.

This is the church-the machine talking here. This is not Church the Body of Christ speaking. Church the Body of Christ would never do such an Un-Biblical thing in a world reading blog.

Jesus tells us in His word how to handle things and you are out of line. Thanks for showing us the difference between the church-machine and the Church - The Body of Christ.

I issue you no warning other than I pray for you as I close out.

Friday, September 19, 2008

Phil C & Chris Knight & Senor Blackwood

You guys are making some interesting comments that have sidestepped some very important issues. Anony asked some great questions and you refuse to answer because herefuses to surface. I admit they were great questions. Now I'm asking the same questions. Are you ready now to answer:

Senor - Have you recently made a disciple who made another disciple. Tell us about this. How about your senior church leadership, has the senior pastor of your church made a disciple recently who also made a disciple? This is what we should be talking about, right?

Now I want to know your answers to these questions. This will reveal some interesting things. Not sure you will answer. Pretty sure you will not. I've been wrong before. Let's give up some praise for Jesus. Your answers will be praising Jesus, I hope.

How should reformation take place? How has it taken place in the past?

Face it -those opposing Bob on this blog are much more vile and insulting than Bob.

Phil - Quality of Disciples? What steps does your church take to evaluate the quality of their disciples? What steps do you take? Do you have any disciples? Please answer the questions and not sidestep.

Chris - great - you invite them to Jesus first - what do your church members do? Have you asked anyone when was last time they led someone to Jesus? I ask the question all the time. The answer is pathetic. How about you guys - When was the last time for you.

Chris - do you personally disciple someone who has made another disciple?

How about you Phil?

If the answer is no then perhaps you should put down our "structure guard" and ask Bob how he is doing that?

Phil - your church is healthy? Quite a claim. How did you decide that. I would like to seriously know how you made that evaluation. Your anomoly must be studied because every bit of research I have read shows the number of churched is declining in every county in America and those that are churched increasingly fail to correctly state basic fundamental doctrine. We should be following your model - if you can substantiate that claim.

WAKE UP - Christianity is dying in America, in the church and outside its walls. The society is becoming more hostile towards Christians - not because of people like Bob - but because they see the church differently than you guys defend it.

What is Church? part 2

I anticipated the mess as seen in my post Let's define Church! I did that on purpose.

Sometimes you gotta say radical things to get to the heart of the issue here. Of course I have a method to my madness. I just want answers. Answers matter here.

A friend at SimpleChurch said, "Our first challenge in grasping what God intends the church to be, is to stop looking at it through the lens of our background and through the lens of 2,000 years of "church" as a formal institution."

Dee Hock says: "The problem is never how to get new, innovative thoughts into your mind, but how to get old ones out. Every mind is a building filled with archaic furniture. Clean out a corner of your mind, and creativity will instantly fill it."

What is Church? That is the question. How Church is expressed is NOT the question.

Now can we have some sanity here?

What is Church? How we define Church carries serious ramifications on how she is Expressed. How she is expressed is a secondary question. Now you know the rules, lets answer the question, What is Church?

Thursday, September 18, 2008

Dear disillussioned...

As I write this blog literally thousands upon thousands of young leaders have left or are leaving the American church. They love Jesus but are seeking to serve Him elsewhere. Your search is for meaning, purpose, authenticity and relevance among other important things. We are not calling you back to the church you left but instead we are calling you into a fresh Holy Spirit work of God.

If you are in this camp, I would love to speak with you. We are doing internships this summer in Jackson Hole, Wyoming that will help you discover how God made you to make a difference in the world and specifically among your generation. Your love for Jesus is a God given gift and your desire to make a difference is part of His plan for your life.

Email me bcarder@centurytel.net for more information on what we are doing to help your generation change the world for Christ.

The Disciple Driven Church is raising up leaders among your generation and God is using them in mighty ways. I would love to tell you more.

Let's focus on worship with the unsaved

Why do we invite unsaved people to worship with the saved?

In case you didn't know it, unsaved people cannot really worship God until they know Him.

Perhaps we should invite them to Jesus before inviting them into the family of God.

Here I go falling off the deep end again.

Let's focus on inviting...

I'll be brief. That's a miracle in and of itself.

The church in America has largely replaced inviting "people to Jesus" with inviting "them to church". There is a subtle shift that many may not see. After inviting them to church they feel their work is done. It becomes the job of the church machinery to reach them for Christ. And I do praise God that some are finding Jesus and that Jesus is blessing here. But I often wonder what it would be like if we had full obedience by everyone to the Great Commission of God. Instead of preachers encouraging their people to invite their friends to church instead he would encourage them to lead someone to Christ.

Wednesday, September 17, 2008

Let's define "Church"

I hate it when I see signs on church properties that say Church.
I hate it when someone invites me to their church.
I hate it when I get postcard invitations to events at church.
I hate it when people ask me where I go to church.
I hate it when buildings and places are called church.
I hate it when the pastor welcomes us to church.

I hate the church --the location...
I love the Church the people -- the Bride of Christ....

Now the whole world thinks church is a location. How in the world did we get this wrong? And, then we know we are conveying the wrong thing and we still use the word wrongly. Isn't that stupid!

Interesting - Mark Labberton writes...

Our central lie is in the discrepancy between the language of worship and the actions of worship. We confess “Jesus is Lord” but only submit to the part of Christ’s authority that fits our grand personal designs, doesn’t cause pain, doesn’t disrupt the American dream, doesn’t draw us across ethnic and racial divisions, doesn’t add the pressure of too much guilt, doesn’t mean forgiving as we have been forgiven, doesn’t ask for more than a check to show compassion. We “sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs” expressing our desire to know Jesus, but the Jesus we want to know is the sanitized Jesus that looks a lot like us when we think we are at our best. Despite God’s Word to the contrary, we think we can say that we love God and yet hate our neighbor, neglect the widow, forget the orphan, fail to visit the prisoner, ignore the oppressed. Its the sign of disordered love. When we do this, our worship becomes a lie to God.
–Mark Labberton, The Dangerous Act of Worship: Living God’s Call to Justice (Downers Grove: IVP, 2007), 71

This post is part of a synchroblog on “Discussing Maturity In The Light Of Our Faith”

Grace rules wrote: "I wish the church didn’t think that participating in a lot of programs,ministries and or church activities equaled spiritual maturity. I was amazed last year when the Willow Creek’s study came out. I wasn’t amazed at what they discovered – I was amazed that before the study they had actually believed that if Christians participated in a certain set of activities, with higher levels of frequency, it would produce disciples of Christ who were maturing spiritually. They were shocked when they discovered through a multiple year study that their programs weren’t that good at helping their people grow and develop spiritually.

People like Dallas Willard have been saying this sort of thing for years. Increased participation in church activities/programs/ministries does not produce disciples, it just produces people who spend more time at church instead of out in their communities where they could really have an impact in bringing God’s will to earth as it is in heaven. I think churches would serve the mission of God better and promote spiritual growth in followers of Jesus more effectively by teaching, encouraging and inspiring their members to do the work of the church in their daily lives and jobs, in their neighborhoods and communities.

Don’t get me wrong – I think there is a time and place for certain programs (so please don’t feel you need to defend the program that you are involved with) but I know from experience that a lot of the things that I have been involved in at church aren’t really that beneficial – mostly because I have done it before in a different format. You know what I am talking about – it’s the same old bible study being taught, the same old class on how to handle my finances, the same old evangelistic course with a new name etc. etc. etc. Is it wrong to do something for fun or enjoyment – no, it isn’t. But our churches are depending on these things to be the catalyst of spiritual growth for me and you – and it ain’t working."

Read more at grace rules

Bill Kinnon's creative sarcasm

achievable ends: Service This Morning

Summer Internship for young adults

As you may know, Michelle and I moved here to St. Louis by faith 3 years ago to become missionaries to America. We all know that given enough time the American Church will be looking more like Europe than like the glory days of recent modern history. There is a problem and God has revealed two solutions worth engaging.

1. God has always had a plan to capture the hearts of lost people through His simple plan of making disciples who make disciples. Making disciples is the answer and always has been and always will be. All generations can do this when clearly and simply shown how when this becomes the priority.

2. God has placed an intense inner hunger for Him in the hearts of younger generations in their 30’s, 20’s and teens. Even though these younger generations are giving up on the traditional American Church they have not and refuse to give up on Jesus. They love Jesus and seek to know Him and serve Him – but the Church in America is not reaching them.

As missionaries God has helped us discern our times as well as showing us how to capture the hearts of younger generations by giving them a cause worth living and dying for. God has placed in the hearts of these younger generations a deep searching desire for simplicity and spiritual depth, for something requiring great commitment and sacrifice and something worth living and dying for if needed.

God has answered prayer! We have been asking our friends to pray for a resort that would be open to our training of young adults. It happened today right in the heart of the Tetons'. It was a total God thing. Now, already we are recruiting 30 young adult college age student to do an internship with Disciple Driven Church this summer in the Tetons’.

I have nothing but praise to God for answering our prayers. Also, please pray that the leaders of God’s choosing will be recruited for this first time ever training. We will train, empower and release young adults to take back America for God. This bigger than us. It’s all about God!

Friday, September 12, 2008

You asked for it....

My friend honest2blog asked, What does a Holy Spirit driven disciple making movement look like? Well he wasn't really all that nice about it but I'm not always nice either. It sorta makes two of us, right.

I only have time for a quick few snapshots and believe me I have a whole lot more to share at the right time.A few simple descriptions will tell the tale.

Unleashed Holy Spirit power.
Empowered disciple making Christ followers operating in their spiritual gifts, Eph 4 gifts and manifestation giftings.
People released from their addictions, bondage, strongholds.
People delivered from demons.
The church serving the church through their gifts.
Disciples who make disciples to also make disciples.
Reaching the world in fulfillment of the Great Commission the SUPREME thing.
Living in the Physical and Spiritual Realms.
Daily walking in the Spiritual Disciplines.
Acceptance of Christ and full surrender of everything for Him.
Baptism in water and in the Holy Spirit for empowerment for service.
Believers holding other believers accountable.
Everyone in a discipling relationship with someone discipling them and them also discipling another.
Miracles, healing, deliverance, no tolerance for not making disciples.
We do not plant churches -- we make disciples.
We have no need for buildings.
We do not invite the unsaved to worship until they find Jesus.
We invite people to Jesus first and then to church. In that order.
It's never about us -- Always about God and His mission.
We do not tolerate spiritually immature whining believers who live to be served.
No geographical or church or district boundaries.
We give up all our rights...
We give our younger twenty somethings something worth living and dying for.

Oprah Winfrey

I'm taking issue with Oprah Winfrey who said,

Posted on Sep 5, 2008 10:46 AM
“The item in today’s Drudge Report is categorically untrue. There has been absolutely no discussion about having Sarah Palin on my show. At the beginning of this presidential campaign when I decided that I was going to take my first public stance in support of a candidate, I made the decision not to use my show as a platform for any of the candidates. I agree that Sarah Palin would be a fantastic interview, and I would love to have her on after the campaign is over.” – Oprah Winfrey, September 5, 2008

The Planter: She is using her show as a platform, the day she used herself.

Read the comments at Oprah

Let's all become missionaries...

I have a new brainstorm.

Let's start a Missionary movement of disciple makers in America. Imagine a church - the Body of Christ not a location where all Christ followers are of One Heart, One Mind, One Spirit and ONE MISSION -- His Great Commission as led by the Holy Spirit.

Imagine a church without walls...

Imagine a church with no geographical or district restrictions...

Imagine all believers working together to make disciples...

Imagine a Body of Christ that is Holy Spirit empowered to do things only God can do through them.

I want no part of a new movement that plants churches - THAT IS NOT MY/OUR CALL.
I want to be a part of a movement that makes disciples who make disciples - THIS IS OUR CALL, ALWAYS HAS BEEN AND ALWAYS WILL.

When denominations and movements took up Church planting they also lost and are losing their disciples making disciples emphasis. Of course many will argue this point. So - it's still true.

Jesus told us to make disciples and He also said He would build His Church. We get to do our part and He promises to do His.

I'm far from being a church planter...I'm a disciple multiplier. And, God is raising up His Church all around me while crossing and crisscrossing America and all of her fences.

While I'm on a small roll...

Did you know? You can actually make disciples who make disciples who make disciples that lead to exponentially growing movements of God that transform the world without...

Attractional events

I have many examples of that being done WITH the tools above that suck out much of the resources for the Church to be the Church in the world.

Did you know that sometimes the tools we think we need to do the job actually becomes a hindrance to our doing the job. I see that in the American Church.

That can be said of the four things listed above.

Did you know?

Did you know that there would be enough financial resources among the Christian community to reach the entire world if...

We didn't spend it all on BUILDINGS to gather people.
We didn't spend it all on PROGRAMS to take care of the already reached.
We didn't spend it all on ATTRACTION EVENTS.
We didn't spend it all on OURSELVES.
We didn't spend it all on BUDGETS that BENEFIT.

It's really sad, sad, sad. I'm guilty of doing all the above in my lifetime. It's sad, sad, sad, isn't it?

My friend built a 45 million dollar facility for his 3,000 member church. Think what the church could do with 45 million dollars in the world to make disciples.

I built a 3.3 million dollar addition in my last church (we built it) and we have around 600 people at the time. Think about that investment in so few people.

How can we continue to justify such things? What say you here?


How in the world can one assume a certain TONE in my blog posts? It seems when I bump into those who are trying to protect, ignore, stand up for the condition of the American Church they accuse me of having a wrong TONE!

Imagine the member of your church saying she doesn't like the TONE of your newsletter.
Imagine your family not liking the TONE of your recent email.
Imagine someone not liking the TONE of your Christmas card.
Imagine someone not liking the TONE of the comments on your church sign.
Imagine someone not liking the TONE of your church ad in the newspaper.

Have we (some) really gone to that petty level in accusing people of having the wrong TONE in their writing? I don't like your TONE!!

When people don't like facing the Truth about the American Church they accuse me of bashing her or my TONE is wrong. Let me suggest that we stand up and fix what is wrong or better yet, let's get to work at making disciples who make disciples.

If I didn't love God and His Church I wouldn't be saying the things I do. It is with great love that live to reform the Church back to her original mission.

Wednesday, September 10, 2008

Old Farmers Almanac

Old Farmers Almanac: Global cooling may be underway

By David Tirrell-Wysocki, Associated Press Writer
DUBLIN, N.H. — The Old Farmer's Almanac is going further out on a limb than usual this year, not only forecasting a cooler winter, but looking ahead decades to suggest we are in for global cooling, not warming.

Based on the same time-honored, complex calculations it uses to predict weather, the Almanac hits the newsstands on Tuesday saying a study of solar activity and corresponding records on ocean temperatures and climate point to a cooler, not warmer, climate, for perhaps the next half century.

"We at the Almanac are among those who believe that sunspot cycles and their effects on oceans correlate with climate changes," writes meteorologist and climatologist Joseph D'Aleo. "Studying these and other factor suggests that cold, not warm, climate may be our future."

It remains to be seen, said Editor-in-Chief Jud Hale, whether the human impact on global temperatures will cancel out or override any cooling trend.

"We say that if human beings were not contributing to global warming, it would become real cold in the next 50 years," Hale said.

For the near future, the Almanac predicts most of the country will be colder than normal in the coming winter, with heavy snow from the Ozarks into southern New England. Snow also is forecast for northern Texas, with a warmer than usual winter in the northern Plains.

Almanac believers will prepare for a hot summer in much of the nation's midsection, continuing drought conditions there and wild fire conditions in parts of California, with a cooler-than-normal season elsewhere. They'll also keep the car packed for the 2009 hurricane season, as the Alamanac predicts an active one, especially in Florida.

But Editor Janice Stillman said it's the winter foreasts that attract the most attention, especially this year, with much higher heating prices.

So, in line with the weather and economy forecasts, the Almanac includes information on using wood for heat: the best wood, how to build a fire in a fireplace, whether to use a wood stove and how to stay warm — all winter — with a single log.

Here's the secret, popularized in 1777: Throw a log out an upstairs window, dash down the stairs and outside, retrieve the log, dash upstairs, throw the log out the window and so on.

"Do that until you work up a sweat and you'll be warm all winter," said Stillman.

Last year, the Almanac correctly predicted "above-normal" snowfall in the Northeast — an understatement — and below-normal snowfall in the mid-Atlantic states.

New Hampshire, home of the Almanac, saw the most snow in 134 years and missed an all-time record by 2.6 inches.

Established in 1792, the Old Farmer's Almanac is North America's oldest continuously published periodical. The little yellow magazine still comes with the hole in the corner so it can hang in outhouses.

Boasting 18.5 million readers, this year's edition contains traditional tips on gardening and astronomical information and tide charts so accurate the government considered banning them during World War II, fearing they would help German spies.

The Old Farmer's Almanac is not to be confused with the Maine-based Farmer's Almanac, published "only" since 1818.

The 217th edition also predicts social trends such as sofas that measure body temperature, shopping carts that sound an alarm when filled with too much junk food and closet shelves and hangers that talk to give advice on matching shirts and ties.

"I would really hate that," Hale said. "What do you mean these don't match? Of course they match! You kidding me? Pink goes perfectly well with yellow," he joked.

Upholding its tradition of being "new, useful and entertaining," the Almanac offers tips on how to keep gardens alive, even in snow, and how to keep people alive, even for 100 years. (Some examples: Take it easy, use your brain, laugh and flirt!)

As printed publications fold around the country because of falling readership, Stillman says the Almanac is keeping pace with the 21st Century with a website that offers the printed version and supplements that can be personalized based on a reader's ZIP code.

Hale said the magazine with the familiar features remains popular in a digital age because, well, it's an almanac, and readers have said they like it being predictable.

We are not Restrained, we are Released!

The Disciple Driven Church movement is one that must be free of geographical limitations. In that, I mean we work across denominational, district and church territorial boundaries. We have no geographical limitations. We go where no man has ever gone before as the Spirit of God leads us.

God is raising up a remnant of people who long for more of God's Holy Spirit and it is our privilege to lead them into a cause worth living and dying for. Holy Spirit empowered disciple making movements are being birthed across America without all the fuss about better programs, buildings, bigger budgets and CONTROL!

We are involved in a work of God to reach the younger generations of America who long to see God work today like he did in the New Testament times.

We will go wherever God calls us! That's a non-negotiable of ours to reach this generation for Christ.


I'm still searching for the perfect resort to do a leadership project I have in the works. Do you have any contacts across America? If you know of a believer who owns a resort that would be a plus for our project.

Come on friends, let's network together for the sake of the mission of Jesus.

I'm trying to shed a few pounds...

This past summer I caught a huge 19+ inch bass in the pond behind my house. Michelle took a picture of me holding the fish, that's when I realized I was starting to look like a BIG fish! So I'm counting my food intake points. This means I'm hungry! But losing weight, already.

As you pray for me, pray that I will reach that magical weight goal.

Tuesday, September 09, 2008

Mr. President performed by Casey Darnell


A glimpse into the minds of young twenty something's. They do not think like the rest of the world wants them to think.

God will lead, He will not fail, Will we follow?

By Karen Rowe

It takes faith to walk through the door that God opens,
It takes courage in God to take us where we know that HE is leading.

It takes a mindful heart to please God to HIS understanding that we want what HE wants.

It takes a thankful heart to trust God enough to be happy right where we are today.
It takes praise to God to get us where we will be tomorrow!

It takes patience to wait and not to worry!

Monday, September 08, 2008

He is just discipling his OWN family first...WOW!

In our Disciple Driven Church movement God brought Matthew and Janey, the parents of 12 children. They attended our training and they joined our hearts to disciple and release Holy Spirit led and released disciple making movements. They prayed for God to reveal to them His plan.

Matthew broke his leg and finally had time before God to think and pray. During this down time, God made the direction clear. Disciple your own family first!

Matthew shared yesterday at our worship gathering that in obedience to God he was discipling his own family first. So in obedience on Labor Day weekend the immediate and extended family of Matthew and Janey held a weekend camp meeting here at the Quiver River State Part. They had worship, family healing and sharing, communion, and even a service of baptism. Matthew baptized 6 family members. Last night they hosted their first family and friends Church gathering in their home. It's all about making spiritually empowered disciples who make disciples. It always starts with your own family first.

Can you imagine what would happen in America if every husband/father would disciple His own family first? Too many are letting the Church do that for them and the church is grossly failing at it. Ever wonder why America is in trouble. Herein lies the answer and the solution.

By the way...

Making Spirit filled and empowered disciples who make disciple personally is not just another trend that will come and go. It is the original mandate of Jesus. Hmmmm!

It has come to America and she will never go away. Mark my words. The Holy Spirit has birthed the movement and it will soon be out of man's control. This is really cool.

I'm finding that....

*I'm finding that - The very ONE who complains about my blog finds himself continuing to visit her.

Isn't that weird? Whatsup brother/fellow pastor??

I couldn't resist..

What can I say, I long for the American Church to be reformed/shaped/reinvented back to the original design of Jesus with the purpose of making spirit led and fully empowered disciples who make also disciples personally.

By the way, this is clearly not the purpose of Sunday worship or is it? Just keep preaching with the hope that some will obey without demanding full compliance and you will have similar results. Jesus demands full compliance to the Truth. Why don't we do that with our church members?

The Defensive American Church...

Every clear thinking American Church leader will admit that the Church is not well.

If that is true, why do we also get defensive when someone points out where we are sick?

Why all the whining? If the church is sick, we better be talking about it and then doing something about it.

The church is sick, perhaps we need a Jerusalem Council to discuss where and why she is sick and how she will recover if she is to recover.

One leader said, "Let's stop talking about what's wrong with the American Church!" Why would we want to do that? I love the Church too much to follow that stupid logic.


In America and in other places we are taught that it is only our responsibility to proclaim the Truth and what people do with that Truth is their business. We only are obligated to preach the Truth and nothing more.

I'm willing to hinge the state of the American as a direct result of our believing this lie. This is why we can preach hundreds of sermons, lead thousands of Bible studies and have discipling conversations with the multitudes and still not be changed or have a changed church.

If you lead someone to Christ or if you are a parent or a leader you have spiritual authority over those entrusted in your care. It's a God given spiritual authority. When I pastored I actually had spiritual authority over those in my congregation. It was a God given authority to insist/demand that the Truth I proclaimed MUST BE LIVED OUT in everyone I was in authority over.

Satan's lie that all we have to do is proclaim the Truth is a distortion straight out of hell. We are to insist that the Truth be followed and if not - we have the right/obligation to discipline those who reject the Truth.

Proclaiming the Truth is the first step in leading believers into freedom in Christ. Accountability to that Truth is another step. Repentance with regard to that Truth is another step. Truth plus Accountability equals Repentance which results in Transformation.

I'm sick and tired of people pleasing sermons that demand no change as long as they will just hear it. Doesn't that bother you?

Friday, September 05, 2008

We must reduce dependancy on foreign oil.

As oil prices fall, OPEC faces production dilemma
By Jad Mouawad
Published: September 4, 2008 - International Herald Tribune

"The focus of the debate among OPEC ministers gathering in Vienna next week will not be whether there is a need to cut crude oil production, but rather when," PFC Energy, a consulting firm, wrote in a note Wednesday. "The question facing OPEC ministers is the optics of how to engineer this reduction."

Some analysts suspect that OPEC is already trying to prevent prices from dropping below $100 a barrel by discreetly paring production.

Saudi Arabia, for example, has reduced its output in the past month by 50,000 barrels to 100,000 barrels a day, according to various estimates. Saudi Arabia, like most OPEC producers, does not provide timely production figures.

Many questions remain unanswered: What is the minimum price that OPEC is willing to defend? Can the cartel prove more effective than it has in the past at imposing discipline among its members? How low does Saudi Arabia want to see prices fall?

OPEC accounts for about 40 percent of the world's oil production. It does not set prices directly. Instead, its members manage global supplies through production quotas that are periodically assigned to all member countries except for Iraq.

Its 13 members are, ranked by July production level, Saudi Arabia, Iran, the United Arab Emirates, Kuwait, Iraq, Venezuela, Nigeria, Angola, Libya, Algeria, Qatar, Indonesia and Ecuador. Indonesia, which has become a net importer of oil, will leave the cartel at the end of the year.

"There is a clear divergence within OPEC between countries that want to keep oil prices high, such as Iran and Venezuela, and those that want to lower prices to a level where they do not hurt global demand, such as Saudi Arabia," Brad Bourland, chief economist at Jadwa Investments, said this week.

The Planter comments: America is reducing foreign oil consumption by one million barrels a day. OPEC is becoming concerned with our falling consumption and determination to become less dependent on their oil. As Americans we must demand that oil get back to at least half of what they desire for each barrel. There's plenty of oil, but they want to gouge us. Let's keep driving less and put more money in our pockets and less in our gas tanks. OPEC may have already sealed there long term fate. Americans will not tolerate much more of this. Our momma's didn't raise a bunch of dummies.

The Experiment...

The experiment: Can God do in America what He is doing in other places around the world through exponential Holy Spirit empowered disciple making?

A few years ago, Michelle and I left the comforts (and headaches) associated with being senior pastor to entirely walk by faith and complete trust in God to birth a disciple making movement much like that in Africa where disciples are making disciples at an exponential growth rate with Holy Spirit power.

Three years later, the experiment is a huge success. All praise to God for doing this.
Yes, God has birthed Holy Spirit empowered disciple making movements across America.
Yes, God has birthed Churches who are growing exponentially (doubling every year).
Yes, God has birthed movements of disciple multipliers with Holy Spirit fullness and power.
Yes, God has birthed a Holy Spirit work that cannot be contained by geography. It is a Holy Spirit released work that crosses denominational, district and local church barriers.

I have now come to believe that through this new work God is up to reforming the Church in America. We must get back to our redemptive roots and the Holy Spirit is leading us there.

Because of your partnership with us, you have a huge stake in what God is doing. America is being blessed by God and His Church is being reformed by His Spirit and the obedience of His children.

Thank you for your prayers, your support and your determination to see us through to American Reformation of the Church and her redemptive mission.

Thursday, September 04, 2008


Just wondering what you all think of the McCain/Palin ticket?

Any thoughts on Palin's speech last evening.

I know it's dangerous to talk politics. But I am finding it is more dangerous to talk about the Church.

My friend nails me in a previous post...

The Planter: This was recently posted down the post line. I'm bringing it to the surface here and now for more discussion. I love how people view me as the enemy when I am only probing the cancer for the cure.

My friend J.R. wrote: "I am curious Bob, you post frequently about all the people that are in error and who reject your movement. I cannot recall a single post talking about someone outside of your group that you support or agree with. Can you name one other organization, outside of your own, that is doing it right? Has the right theology of the Spirit and has the right theology of disciple-making?"

THE PLANTER: I've never said everyone is in error. I have said that God is working and is blessing in the old wine skin called the American Church. I did not say everything is wrong. I love to worship, I love to give to God through His Church, I love to partake of Holy Communion. I love to gather with my church family. However, I do not want to live the rest of my life in a wine skin ministry that is losing her effectiveness to reach the multitudes here in America. I came to St. Louis to see if God would do in America what He is doing in other parts of the world, miraculously. In case you haven't noticed, young adults are leaving the church in America in search Jesus! They long for miraculous.

There are others in America doing what I am doing with much success. It seems God is birthing a Holy Spirit empowered movement of disciple making that refuses to be restricted to a church location or geographical boundaries/limitations. It is a Holy Spirit released work.

Just because I have pointed out the sickness of the American Church does not mean I am against her. I just can't get over the pastors who get defensive when I point put where the church is sick. If we are going to get well, we better admit that we are sick.

I agree with every group, believer or organization that views the Great Commission with supremacy and believes it will take Holy Spirit empowered followers of Christ to recapture God's Redemptive work as laid out in the life and message of Jesus. Remember this is a fresh work of the Holy Spirit, those involved are yet to be named.

I pushing for Reformation in America. God started it with Luther and now I see the Holy Spirit finishing what He started in our day.

God is working in the American Church, He alone gets the glory.

I long for God's manifold purpose to revealed through the Church. That purpose is that God is God and He alone is God. It has always been God's desire to use His Church to prove His glory and power to the demons, spiritual principalities and Satan himself. We are bearers of the message, God is God and He alone is God. Are we proclaiming with evidence that message?

Does Satan and his cohorts see through the Church that God is God and He alone is God? Is the Church of Jesus so powerful and full of miracles (in America)that even the demons are convinced that God is God and He alone is God? Do our young people see the power of God being revealed in and through the Church?

I don't have to like or stay in the powerless America Church I have been a part of. I don't have to settle for that either. I long for something more...that is what I live for and that is what I am now seeing. Never did I ever think I would see and experience what I now see and experience in this Holy Spirit birthed wine skin.

It's not about Theology! It about released geography. It about a released people to do a God released work without man's control or limitations. Let's just let God do what He wants to do and how He wants to do it. Do I know what that looks like? No I do not. But it is exciting to see every new day reveal another piece of the puzzle.

Thanks J.R. for giving me an opportunity to share this here.

Reform equals the Holy Spirit.

There can be no great movement of God in the western church without Prayer and the Power of the Holy Spirit's empowerment/baptism/overflowing on every Christ follower. This Holy Spirit power is even missing in Missional movements in America. While trying to reinvent the church in America the Holy Spirit's role is neglected. When this happens we just have the same thing that looks different. Only the Holy Spirit can bring the American Church back to her redemptive roots. Only the Holy Spirit can reform the American Church.

Thots from an old post

The disciple making (exponential) movements of God begin with the Holy Spirit's power who always takes us back to the redemption of the lost through the person and work of Jesus. We are so afraid of the Holy Spirit. Really, you will never fully understand the depth of the redemptive work of Christ without the empowerment of the Holy Spirit in fullness of Holy Spirit baptism. It is the Holy Spirit who takes us back to Jesus, our first love. Many so called missional movements start at the wrong place and never reach the right place - The Holy Spirit.

My Disciples must first be taught...

As I think about my next disciples -what must they be taught?

As soon as I lead them to Christ...they discover that they must lead others to freedom in Christ by being set free themselves.

So I lead them through the Steps to Freedom so they can first be set free from strongholds, generational sins, open doors etc. We are leading people into freedom, we are setting captives free.

I lead them into water baptism. If I lead them to Jesus I lead them into water baptism. The discipler always baptizes his/her disciple.

I lead them into community by introducing them to the church family, this is usually done at the baptism.

I lead them into the teaching on the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with evidence. Of course everyone receives the Holy Spirit in conversion but they also need the baptism of the Holy Spirit Scripture refers to. It is with the Holy Spirit baptism that new disciples discover the power to lead others to Jesus. Perhaps this is why the church is so ineffective here.

I help them discover their Ephesians 4 gifts as well as their spiritual and manifestation gifts.

I quickly move them into the disciplines. Five are for them to grow and the other disciplines are for the church to grow. They will never disciple others without mastering the spiritual disciplines. The spiritual disciples are the most important key to spiritual growth following conversion, water baptism, steps to freedom and the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I lead them into spiritual warfare teaching.

Remember we are not making good church members we are making great Christ followers. The redemptive mission of Christ is the most important thing we exist for.

Credibility factors...

If you are going to claim to be a disciple maker than there will be a whole army of disciple makers under you.

If you are launching disciple making movements there will be a whole army of disciple making movements under you.

In America if you are going to have a voice, sadly it seems, you need to first write a book. I always thought you had to do it before you could talk about it.

Oh yes, I am having fun today.

When thinking about the American Church...

If the dog is sick and throwing up on the carpet, it is high time to admit that it is sick and needs to see a dog doctor.

Why do we insist that pointing out the stains in the carpet is personally attacking the church. I'm pointing out that that the dog is sick for crying out loud. Some will be offended because I used the dog analogy here. Oh boy!!

I'm part of the Church, I'm in the family. I'm a reformer. I helped make her sick and so did you. Let's stop whining!

Let's admit she is sick and get back on the prescribed program Jesus launched for her.

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